Misty Copeland

[kfw]

I think people often find what they want to find, aurora, and if they prefer instead to give people the benefit of the doubt, they often find something else. Productive debates, in my opinion, are ones that don't necessarily change anyone's basic opinion, but that help them better understand, rather than condemn, the other ones. I think there are a range of respectable opinions on the issues we've discussed here, and respectable and not so respectable ways to voice them. And I'll leave it at that.

[aurora]

I don't think that the criticism of Misty is based on race. If Stella Abrera, Sarah Lane or Isabella Boylton posted a topless photo while at the same time portraying themselves as role models for little kids and visiting youth centers people would have the exact same concerns.

There has been plenty of criticism of Copeland not just about this photo issue, but also along more race specific lines. I brought up racism here specifically in response to KFW's cries of woe is me, people are trying to paint me as racist and sexist.

Also it may be picking nits, but let us be accurate. The photo is risque, you can see nipple, but it is not a topless photo:

http://cocoafab.com/new-show-alert-misty-copeland-to-mentor-future-ballerinas-on-new-reality-series/

[kfw]

I'm a moderate, so I'm used to criticism on both sides. Woe is me? Hardly.

[lmspear]

Guess who won a Dance Magazine Award this year.

http://dancemagazine.com/issues/December-2014/Dance-magazine-awards-2014

[Helene]

Claiming something is racist or sexist doesn't make it so. Claiming something is not racist or sexist doesn't make it not so. It's a matter of whether the arguments are convincing, whether they change someone's mind or open someone's mind, or whether they are just words.

I believe that, except where people are trolling or experimenting with new personas (often not the same thing), what we post describes who we are and what our values are, and often tells more about ourselves than the ostensible subject. A careful reader can follow who is saying what and come to his or her own conclusion about the subject and the people.

[dirac]

I would note that young girls have seen nipples before and are not generally horrified by them. They do not (yet) see them as sexualized things. They have them, and many have fed from them fairly recently.

That argument would apply here if only very young girls looked up to Copeland, and if those girls could be expected never to grow up.

The other thing that should be said about “strumpet” and “wench” is that not only are they inaccurate in content - to use kbarber's words, no one's comparing posing for a photo with "promiscuity" or "prostitution" - but their tone is all wrong. it’s possible to criticize without insulting, and to criticize people for one thing while admiring them for another, as I have done. Caricatures distort, and blur the difference.

I think sex workers are perfectly fine people, or at least no better or worse than anyone else (and I don't use "promiscuous" as a pejorative either, particularly not where women are concerned). I did feel a certain amount of irreverence was in line, given that portions of this thread have already gone well beyond parody. In any case, not half as insulting - to anyone - as some of the allegedly "serious" comments made about Copeland in this discussion.

[kfw]

Dirac wrote:

I think sex workers are perfectly fine people, or at least no better or worse than anyone else (and I don't use "promiscuous" as a pejorative either, particularly not where women are concerned). I did feel a certain amount of irreverence was in line, given that portions of this thread have already gone well beyond parody. In any case, not half as insulting - to anyone - as some of the allegedly "serious" comments made about Copeland in this discussion.

I don't judge people as a class, so I don't think sex workers are worse than anyone else either – than me, for example. But sarcasm substituting for argument coarsens debates, and dismissive generalities, precisely because they lack specifics, don't advance them either. I remember when the former, at least, would not have been tolerated on this board.

Helene wrote:

I believe that, except where people are trolling or experimenting with new personas (often not the same thing), what we post describes who we are and what our values are, and often tells more about ourselves than the ostensible subject. A careful reader can follow who is saying what and come to his or her own conclusion about the subject and the people.

I agree. And also how they react to opinions other than their own.

[Quiggin]

I'll just enter on the demure front. Neutral on first glance, but in usage not:

Webster's 2d:

1. Of sober or serious mein …

Nan was very much delighted in her demure way.

2. Affectedly modest …

Demure and coquettish. Miss Mitford

Oxford English Dictionary:

This Anna come demure and sad of chere. in Tundale

This young squire … seemly and demure as a douve. 1470 Malory

Demure Diana, womanly and sad. 1523 J Skelton

If a young gentleman be demure and still of nature, they sayd, he is simple and lacketh witte. 1570 R. Asham

Come with those downcast Eyes, sedate and sweet, Those Looks demure. 1744 J Thomson

Anyway is a strange discussion to be having in 2014. Sounds almost contemporary with Raisin in the Sun where the father talks about how African-Americans have to work twice as hard at a job to be perceived as non threatening.

Added: Regarding nudity, Maria Kochetkova and Mathilde Froustey routinely post photographs of themselves on Instagram and in magazines in states of nakedness much more extreme than Misty Copeland's. And they are considered completely wholesome role models. The boys in the link posted somewhere above are just this side of what used to be called soft porn ...

[abatt]

Since A Raisin in The Sun debuted on Broadway in 1959, the relevance of the line you quoted from the play in 2014 America, where a black president is serving his second term, is certainly debatable, but that's a topic too far afield from ballet.

[kfw]

Webster's online defines "demure" as "quiet and polite," "not attracting or demanding a lot of attention : not showy or flashy." As a standard for women's behavior, rather than behavior chosen by a particular woman, it sounds old-fashioned and more than a little sexist, but I don't think for a moment abatt meant it that way, but rather as a synonym for modest, which in my book is a virtue for anyone.

Regarding nudity, Maria Kochetkova and Mathilde Froustey routinely post photographs of themselves on Instagram and in magazines in states of nakedness much more extreme than Misty Copeland's. And they are considered completely wholesome role models.

By who? If there are people who call them wholesome and Copeland not, that's pertinent to this debate. Who are these people?

[aurora]

Since A Raisin in The Sun debuted on Broadway in 1959, the relevance of the line you quoted from the play in 2014 America, where a black president is serving his second term, is certainly debatable, but that's a topic too far afield from ballet.

You are aware that there are protests about racial injustice going on all over the country at the moment...

[Quiggin]

Again it's in usage where it matters and Merriam Webster Online's sole citation of usage of demure is this –

So even if you think you've moved past your reputation as The Rebel, two minutes after getting together with your more demure sister, you're likely to fall back into that hell-raiser role. —Jessica Mehalic, Cosmopolitan, August 2001

You'll see wholesomeness and perfection and role model in Instagram and Facebook comments: "Maria Kochetkova! ... Such a role model for me!" (via Anaheim Ballet) and "Love u so much!!! a perfect ballerina!!!". Also in one 14 year old dancer's q&a Kochetkova and Copeland cited as role models.

I am very pessimistic about progress made in this country since Raison in the Sun – and how difficult it is for young African American men to get jobs in San Francisco and to have any visibllty in the burgeoning tech business here. I'll leave it at that and agree that it's another discussion.

[balabanov11]

I don't think that the criticism of Misty is based on race. If Stella Abrera, Sarah Lane or Isabella Boylton posted a topless photo while at the same time portraying themselves as role models for little kids and visiting youth centers people would have the exact same concerns.

Like any of the above three would ever have the possibility of the kind of photo shoots that Misty regularly gets. That the above dancers haven't advanced in popularity and recognition, through the use of modern media, as Misty has, is not her concern. Misty doesn't have to try to be a role model for kids, she IS a role model for kids, and a great one, as literally thousands of kids would tell you today. The constant implied racism, and denegration of Misty's body and ability here, is tired and obsessive. She, by some, has committed the apparently unpardonable sin of making a lucrative and rewarding career for herself as a writer, personality, and public speaker, while continuing to seriously pursue her dancing. Certain posters here need to enter the 21 century, and realize what an asset she is to an art form that is dying in general population popularity. We need more dancers to find a way to make their stories palatable to regular people, and get them into the seats.

[abatt]

So are assignments to roles at ABT now based on a popularity contest - who has the best publicity/media team- or are assignments based on skill, technique and artistry.

That's really at the heart of the discussion.

[aurora]

So are assignments to roles at ABT now based on a popularity contest - who has the best publicity/media team- or are assignments based on skill, technique and artistry.

That's really at the heart of the discussion.

No it isn't. Because there is no evidence that she has been assigned roles based on those factors.

[Helene]

So are assignments to roles at ABT now based on a popularity contest - who has the best publicity/media team- or are assignments based on skill, technique and artistry.

That's really at the heart of the discussion.

No it isn't. Because there is no evidence that she has been assigned roles based on those factors.

I agree.. There's nothing to suggest that she has been cast any differently than her peers. In fact, she's been more active in outreach.

[dirac]

Added: Regarding nudity, Maria Kochetkova and Mathilde Froustey routinely post photographs of themselves on Instagram and in magazines in states of nakedness much more extreme than Misty Copeland's. And they are considered completely wholesome role models. The boys in the link posted somewhere above are just this side of what used to be called soft porn ...

I have also noticed the spread of soft porn visual tropes in conventional celebrity photography, among photographs of athletes, for example. Not too long ago I saw a photo spread in Sports Illustrated, of all places, that brought new meaning to the term "fantasy football." We used to have a stash of very old SIs around the house, and I recall a photo of Don Drysdale wearing a nice-young-man sweater that set off those eyes of Dodger blue. Today, readers might have the opportunity to check out Don's butt cheeks. But I digress.

[abatt]

Laughed out loud about the fantasy football reference.

To quote Kander and Ebb, what ever happened to class?

[Tapfan]

I don't think that the criticism of Misty is based on race. If Stella Abrera, Sarah Lane or Isabella Boylton posted a topless photo while at the same time portraying themselves as role models for little kids and visiting youth centers people would have the exact same concerns.

There has been plenty of criticism of Copeland not just about this photo issue, but also along more race specific lines. I brought up racism here specifically in response to KFW's cries of woe is me, people are trying to paint me as racist and sexist.

Also it may be picking nits, but let us be accurate. The photo is risque, you can see nipple, but it is not a topless photo:

http://cocoafab.com/new-show-alert-misty-copeland-to-mentor-future-ballerinas-on-new-reality-series/

I guess I have become desensitized to things that many people find offensive or just tacky. Living in a world with Miley Cyrus, Nikki Minaj and Kim Kardashian can do that to ya.

I think the photo is beautiful and sexy in a tasteful way.

YMMV.

[kfw]

Misty doesn't have to try to be a role model for kids, she IS a role model for kids, and a great one, as literally thousands of kids would tell you today. The constant implied racism, and denegration of Misty's body and ability here, is tired and obsessive. She, by some, has committed the apparently unpardonable sin of making a lucrative and rewarding career for herself as a writer, personality, and public speaker, while continuing to seriously pursue her dancing. Certain posters here need to enter the 21 century, and realize what an asset she is to an art form that is dying in general population popularity.

I know I’m not the only person you’re talking about, but since what I think has been misunderstood and mischaracterized by some posters, I’m going to summarize it here. I’m skeptical that Copeland had to overcome racism, because while racism persists, many people today, thankfully, are eager to give African-Americans opportunities. It’s hard for me to imagine she didn’t encounter these people along the way, and that they didn’t have the more influence. (I’m not suggesting she received special favors. She clearly didn’t need them anyhow). I could very well be wrong (and Copeland may have noticed the racism and not its opposite), but that’s what seems likely to me.

Having achieved success in her ballet career, Copeland was well-positioned to make a “lucrative and rewarding career for herself” offstage as well, and while I doubt details of her story, and self-promotion makes me a little uncomfortable (I’m like those Lake Woebegoners Garrison Keillor gently makes fun of, in that respect), it’s a free country, and if that’s what she wants, more power to her. In general, I’m glad that she’s been able to make money, gain recognition, and gain outside dancing opportunities. She’s earned it. I do see irony in the fact that her offstage success is attributable in significant part to her story of overcoming racism, because even if she did so, she’s benefitting now from whatever the opposite of racism is now, something that might be called black privilege (a description, not a pejorative), which proceeds from empathy and goodwill, but which also stigmatizes any criticism of African-Americans as automatically racist (an attitude very much counter to King’s ideal of judging people’s actions regardless of skin color). Likewise, criticize a successful woman these days, and you’ll likely draw charges of sexism. It’s not like sexism isn’t a reality, so some degree of suspicion is justified in many cases, but political correctness makes it automatic and de rigueur.

I think Copeland made a poor decision by posing for a racy ad when she’s a role model to so many girls, and has said that’s what she wants to be. Some people see that as female sexual empowerment. I disagree, Having said that, I recognize that hers is hardly an unusual choice these days, and not so unusual among dancers either, and even some people knock her for it and look the other way when other female – or male – dancers do it, racism and sexism may apply. But I haven’t seen those people. In any case, that decision is dwarfed by the good work Copeland’s doing. The photo aside, I admire her for using her celebrity for the good of African-American kids (a stated goal) and the good of the art form. In her hard work and determination and dedication, she’s a fantastic role model. To my personal taste her (beautiful) figure isn’t ideal for a ballerina, but that’s my problem, not hers. Some day, I hope to see her dance.

[Tapfan]

I really wish there were more high profile female African American ballet dancers. I appreciate that Misty is turning many black girls on to ballet but I want to hear from other black women. I also want to hear from them as they speak about the art and not about being a black woman in that art. Trouble is, there are so few and none have senior positions at major companies. So who cares?

[kfw]

I really wish there were more high profile female African American ballet dancers. I appreciate that Misty is turning many black girls on to ballet but I want to hear from other black women. I also want to hear from them as they speak about the art and not about being a black woman in that art. Trouble is, there are so few and none have senior positions at major companies. So who cares?

I think this thread has made it clear that a lot of people care, and that talented African-American dancers will be promoted, and articulate ones won’t lack for platforms and publicity. They aren't all going to enroll and rise up from the ranks in a day, but they'll be coming. I saw one - I think she was 14 or 15 - in a featured role in a small-city Nutcracker last year. She was the most interesting and exciting dancer on stage, guest professionals included, and she wants to go pro.

[sandik]

I think this thread has made it clear that a lot of people care, and that talented African-American dancers will be promoted, and articulate ones won’t lack for platforms and publicity. They aren't all going to enroll and rise up from the ranks in a day, but they'll be coming. I saw one - I think she was 14 or 15 - in a featured role in a small-city Nutcracker last year. She was the most interesting and exciting dancer on stage, guest professionals included, and she wants to go pro.

The hard work of overcoming systemic racism, both in the dance world and in the world at large, is a long-term process, as is the road to becoming a professional in dance. I'm thrilled that Copeland is able to bring attention to this issue now, but my big hope is in the young dancers (men and women) that will come after her.

[fondoffouettes]

Musical America has named Copeland one of their top 30 professionals of the year, including her in their "Profiles in Courage" special report. The full report is available here:

http://www.musicalamerica.com/specialreports/PROFILES_2015.pdf

It's nice to see a dancer included in the group.

[sandik]

It's nice to see a dancer included in the group.

Indeed - many thanks for the link!