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I seem to be in the minority, but I quite liked this film......I can even understand those who might consider it a great film.

As has been mentioned before, a lot depends on your expectations. IMO, one is way ahead of the game if you go expecting a dark, "film noire" type psychological thriller rather than something approaching a documentary on ballet. Don't get me wrong, I also think than one can learn much about the world of ballet, the pressures dancers put upon themselves, and the sociological interactions among dancers from the movie. But it is all done inside this dark and haunting story with the world of ballet as a backdrop. (As an aside, I admit that there is certainly a great deal of stereotyping going on.....but remember, the movie needs to be understandable by a mass audience, not just the typical 2000 self-selected audience members one finds at an opera house ballet performance.)

One of the impressions I got from the movie, which I quite enjoyed (but haven't seen mentioned here), is the way the movie presents the paradox of how a dancer (or any performer for that matter) must somehow merge their real self as a human being with the character they are playing. Nina (the main character in the movie) has no trouble with the white swan since that role matches her temperament, but she struggles to the point of madness becoming the black swan. What I personally most loved about the movie was how powerfully (albeit in macabre fashion) it showed the slow but inexorable taking over of Nina's very being by the black swan character she had to play. The black swan is the dead opposite of who Nina thinks of herself as being, so how should she go about finding a way "to get over there"? In her case, that struggle turns all the way to madness.

I may be the only person who sees the movie in this light, but I submit the following to make my case. It seems to me that any great performance has this aspect of merging the performer with their character. Who is she on that stage? With the lights beating down? In costume? Immersed in the story? Is she herself, or her character? I think all great performances require she be both at once. Performers do this all the time of course, but on further consideration such schizophrenic mental pressure sort of sounds like a prescription for madness, does it not?? The movie does a magnificent job of giving the feeling of a great performance. Nina does wonderfully well as Odette, but the house goes wild over her Odile.....IOW, the closer a performer allows herself to merge, and in the process come close to the edge of potential madness, the greater the performance where character and person are one.

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I realized that I would have enjoyed it more if I thought of it more as real camp.

My prediction is that Portman will win an Oscar because of all the publicity around her training and weight loss!

My problem with the movie is that it was so campy, but had pretentions of being a serious movie.

If Portman wins the Golden Globe this Sunday, I agree. Here in L.A., the buzz and marketing hasn't been very huge. It's not being pushed. In fact ever since it premiered last month, it hasn't been in the top 5. The stats must be much better on the East Coast. As far as the Oscar goes nothing's for certain; it depends who the competition is. Plus, she's following up "Black Swan" with a inane Ashton Kutcher "romantic comedy" - a role that required very little from her, with light subject matter after this film. IMO the Kutcher film is a step back for her, and that's getting far more promos here. They'll be judging "Black Swan" with the Kutcher follow up. Usually, when actors and actresses portray real people and physically alter themselves, they get the nod. One recent exception would be Will Smith in "Ali." He played a real person, altered himself somewhat, but he didn't win. When an actresses do it, (for example, Charlize Theron), they win. My questions are: Will the Academy favor the story of a space cadet ballerina over the story of King George VI and his speech therapist? Will they reward camp/spoof/cliche or British history? Is "Black Swan" destined to be the "Rocky Horror Picture Show," or "National Lampoon's Animal House," for the non-ballet going smart phone/texting generation - with a Tchaikovsky soundtrack? It's going to be very interesting to see what happens.

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Sandy raises and interesting aspect to how an actor, dancer or opera singer assumes a role.

Acting by its very nature is the art of a person portraying role, a character, a personality and not themselves. Admittedly this is a talent to be able to do whatever it takes to convincingly portray the person who is in the script, as described by the author, director, librettist and so forth. There's a lot of short hand and assumptions and sterotyping going on in this process. The character's character often emerges from the story itself... how the author has them react etc.

I don't subscribe to the notion that an actor is successful when they somehow "blend" their own self into the character they are portraying. My belief is that the skill is to become a tabla rasa upon which the new character is written. But of course that leaves out the actor's unique and recognizable qualities.

This process has led to "type casting" of performers. John Doe is cast because he looks and has the manner of the character he is to play. In a sense he, is not so much a table rasa, as someone who is being asked to "play himself" with some variation and nuance added.

When dealing with balletic roles in ballet you are really stretching it, in my opinion, when you expect to project a personality onto a ballet character. Storyline ballet characters are given movement, and gesture to describe the character... no dancer can seriously take this from their "real life". What they do do, is learn how to move as perfectly as possible, to move as fluidly as possible and to "nail" the choreography as described to them by the AD or the choreographer. I don't know what Julie Kent's personality is from watching her perform. And I don't actually care, though I am sure she is a wonderful person off stage.

Portman's character may be a composite of ballet stereotypes in a dark horror movie which plays on the dual identity of Odile/Odette in Swan Lake. Isn't that a clever life imitating art imitating life trick that Aronofsky had decided to build his horror plot on. And it it leaves the audience trying to decide what was real and what was imagined believing that this might represent some sort of reality (in the world of a dancer, an actor etc.) Hooey. These people are professionals and approach their work using years of skill and training. They don't need to be coached to find their inner sexual being.

Now of course ballet is a crazy craft because you need to start at it when you are a child and almost remove yourself from the real world because the training is so demanding. I suspect Aronofsky was also taking a shot at the childishness of these performers who often fail to mature because they are learning to move correctly. I don't know dancers off stage except a neighbor who was a ballet instructor and a mom and she seemed very normal to me. But then again she was not a soloist or principal or even a corps member of a major company as Nina was. Neighbor DID have many friends in ABT and NYCB so perhaps even dancers who seem to spend their entire lives at the barra manage to have some normal friends and I would assume normal character development which would facilitate normal relationships.

Movie makers will make movies to entertain (and make money). Some will produce a work of art, or beauty which provides a compelling glimpse at some aspect of the human condition. This movie hardly does that with its cartoon depictions. There's not a real person depicted in that film. Unless we have reality imitating art... and that seems to be what America is all about as we are told what to think, wear, look like, how to behave and essentially conform ourselves into some standard set by others (usually for profit).

What we do know is that skilled performers, directors and so forth know how to distill character traits and use them to build a fictional character which we accept and understand.

They make us believe the make believe. Don't they?

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My questions are: Will the Academy favor the story of a space cadet ballerina over the story of King George VI and his speech therapist? Will they reward camp/spoof/cliche or British history? Is "Black Swan" destined to be the "Rocky Horror Picture Show," or "National Lampoon's Animal House," for the non-ballet going smart phone/texting generation - with a Tchaikovsky soundtrack? It's going to be very interesting to see what happens.

I agree. I saw The King's Speech on sunday and enjoyed it a lot. It seems like a very finely made film.

The Academy is SO unpredictable though. It may be a toss up whether they decide to go after Noir Camp with a little bit of a connection to something artsy or they decide to be earnest and pat themselves on the back for going for the "serious" choice.

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It seems to me that any great performance has this aspect of merging the performer with their character. Who is she on that stage? With the lights beating down? In costume? Immersed in the story? Is she herself, or her character?

That's where the film reminded me of Kirkland's book...

The director has mentioned in interviews that he read many books to prepare for writing the script. I think I recall him mentioning in one interview that he read Kirkland's book. By the way, Natalie gave a tearful thank you speech at an awards show recently in which she thanked Ben Millepied, her partner in the film and, "now in life." She also mentioned in an interview w. Access Hollywood that the director gave her the greatest gift by introducing her to Ben.

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SPOILERS AHEAD

I saw it today.

I agree wholeheartedly with those who have written that your appreciation of this film will depend on your expectations going into it. If you go into it expecting a reasoned examination of life within a ballet company, then this movie isn't for you. If you go into it expecting to see a horror movie/psychological thriller, then you are much more likely to enjoy yourself.

I fall into the latter camp and, while I wouldn't say I enjoyed it given the unrelievedly bleak tone, I can appreciate it as an interesting entry in the horror genre. Its most apparent "cousinage" is with Roman Polanski's "apartment trilogy" -- Repulsion (1965), Rosemary's Baby (1968) and The Tenant (1976). In each of these films, the protagonist wrestles with his/her sanity and experiences various hallucinations, dreams and visions which blur the line between reality and fantasy. Repulsion, in particular, features a lead character who, like Natalie Portman's character in Black Swan, starts out mentally ill and only goes downhill from there.

Black Swan also reminded me (no doubt unintentionally) greatly of Mario Bava's Lisa and the Devil (1972), in which it is impossible to know what is real and what isn't. In fact, I would argue that, in both films, the only "real events" are the final fates of the two protagonists. For instance, in Black Swan, did Nina really have the physical confrontations with her mother? They appear real and yet we see the mother in the audience at the end; beaming at her daughter and no worse the wear for what "happened". Or was the mother in the audience at all? We cannot know for sure because Nina is such an unreliable narrator.

Lastly, the character of Nina suggested to me the characters of Eleanor in Shirley Jackson's The Haunting of Hill House (1959) and Florence Tanner in Richard Matheson's Hell House (1971). All three characters share traits of instability and all three find themselves caught up in supernatural events. Or do they? One of the plot points in both the Jackson and Matheson novels is that there may not be any such thing as a haunting. Instead, the characters of Eleanor and Florence Tanner may be so emotional unstable that they manipulate events to, in effect, create their own hauntings. We see a variation of this in Black Swan where Nina appears to be experiencing supernatural events but which may be nothing more than self-created physical manifestations of her own inner turmoil.

Overall, I thought the acting in this movie was very strong. Natalie Portman gives a forceful performance as the deeply troubled Nina and she sustains it over the course of the entire movie -- no mean feat. The adequacy of her "technique" didn't concern me because the average layperson (for whom this movie is intended) isn't going to notice the difference. And, frankly, the carping about her technique says more about the hyper-obsession with technique that exists in this day and age than it does about Portman or Black Swan. (Some of the carpers should pay more attention to Vincent Cassel's speech to Portman in his office.)

Cassel and Mina Kunis were both strong in their parts although the Kunis character seemed like she would be more at home in Showgirls than in Black Swan. I really liked the woman "playing" the ballet mistress in the company class -- who was she? And Ben Millepied looked pretty ripped at times for someone who I have always though of as being very slight.

At the end of the day, I don't think Natalie Portman's character will deter anyone from letting their child pursue ballet as Nina is blatantly mentally ill. Truthfully, I think more people may be put off by the relentless black/white/grey color scheme at the ballet company. If I were a parent and I saw this movie, I would ask (not unreasonably) -- don't they allow color in the ballet??? :wink:

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the Kunis character seemed like she would be more at home in Showgirls than in Black Swan

Don't knock Showgirls, it's a classic.

I was making no value judgements -- merely pointing out that the Kunis character seemed somewhat out-of-place in that particular dance company. :thumbsup:

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The adequacy of her "technique" didn't concern me because the average layperson (for whom this movie is intended) isn't going to notice the difference. And, frankly, the carping about her technique says more about the hyper-obsession with technique that exists in this day and age than it does about Portman or Black Swan. (Some of the carpers should pay more attention to Vincent Cassel's speech to Portman in his office.)

I just want to say that the adequacy of ballet technique was probably lost on the average layperson, because Portman never dances with other dancers. In class we had shots of her and other people, but that's it. Even the average layperson would have been able to pick you the non-dancer from a group of dancers. This was a wise decision on the part of the director, but everyone should just admit that the training/starving thing didn't make her look like a dancer.

Also, during the "black swan" performance we had no idea if it was good or bad until the audience went wild. The performance itself would give us that info.

This isn't much of a comment about the movie (which I didn't like), as much as about the layperson's experience in judging dance.

For what it's worth my favorite pick for best actress was/is jennifer lawrence in Winter's Bone

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The adequacy of her "technique" didn't concern me because the average layperson (for whom this movie is intended) isn't going to notice the difference. And, frankly, the carping about her technique says more about the hyper-obsession with technique that exists in this day and age than it does about Portman or Black Swan. (Some of the carpers should pay more attention to Vincent Cassel's speech to Portman in his office.)

I just want to say that the adequacy of ballet technique was probably lost on the average layperson, because Portman never dances with other dancers. In class we had shots of her and other people, but that's it. Even the average layperson would have been able to pick you the non-dancer from a group of dancers. This was a wise decision on the part of the director, but everyone should just admit that the training/starving thing didn't make her look like a dancer.

Also, during the "black swan" performance we had no idea if it was good or bad until the audience went wild. The performance itself would give us that info.

This isn't much of a comment about the movie (which I didn't like), as much as about the layperson's experience in judging dance.

For what it's worth my favorite pick for best actress was/is jennifer lawrence in Winter's Bone

I understand and respect where you're coming from but, again, I'm coming at it from a horror/psychological thriller direction. So, from that direction, the actual quality of Portman's dancing almost disappears since it is her increasingly deranged state which captures interest.

As for the layperson's ability to judge, I wonder if everyone in the audience even picked up on the fact that Natalie Portman had a dance double in Sarah Lane. I was looking for Lane but, if you weren't, the rapid crosscutting (and the promotional hype) could fool you. Which, at the end of the day, gets us back to the proposition that Black Swan is no more about dance than Dario Argento's Suspiria is about life at a ballet academy -- unless your ballet academy is run by a coven of witches. :wink:

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For what it's worth my favorite pick for best actress was/is jennifer lawrence in Winter's Bone

Jennifer Lawrence was fantastic in "Winter's Bone". I would say she should have won, but I guess I have to see "Black Swan" before that's a meaningful statement.

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SPOILERS AHEAD

Two more things: Barbara Hershey and Winona Ryder

While opinions will differ on the stereotypical nature of Barbara Hershey's character, she played the heck out of the role. And it so refreshing to see an actress in late middle age who hasn't gone the Joan Rivers route and has actual lines on her face. Amazing how expressive a face can be when it can actually move!

I was neutral on Winona Ryder's performance but the second scene in the hospital room (when Ryder starts stabbing herself in the face with the nail file) was one of the best pure horror moments in recent years -- superior to anything in the recent remake of Friday the 13th and far superior to anything in Rob Zombie's Halloween and Halloween II.

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I understand and respect where you're coming from but, again, I'm coming at it from a horror/psychological thriller direction. So, from that direction, the actual quality of Portman's dancing almost disappears since it is her increasingly deranged state which captures interest.

As for the layperson's ability to judge, I wonder if everyone in the audience even picked up on the fact that Natalie Portman had a dance double in Sarah Lane. I was looking for Lane but, if you weren't, the rapid crosscutting (and the promotional hype) could fool you. Which, at the end of the day, gets us back to the proposition that Black Swan is no more about dance than Dario Argento's Suspiria is about life at a ballet academy -- unless your ballet academy is run by a coven of witches. :wink:

I understand what you are saying, but for me the really big disappointment was that the movie didn't work for me from a horror/psycho thriller direction. Having loved Pi, Requiem for a Dream and Fountain, I felt that this screenplay was really weak, and the ending very unsatisfying.

My complaint about the hype is the hype of training and weight loss - the sacrifices made by the actresses, as if that made the movie better. It has been put out there a lot, that the dance double hadn't been used much because Portman could do it herself. The hype of the movie itself conflates the ballet aspect of the movie with the horror/phycho drama of it. If not why not the continual talk about the weight loss/training.

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I would be interested to hear from other posters which sequences Lane danced. Of course anything seen from a distance and en pointe must have been Lane. But what about the pique turns shot waist-up? Was Portman's face superimposed on Lane in that sequence? Do you think Portman danced en pointe at all? Just for fun, when available, I will rent the movie on netflix in order to pause and rewind.

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^ It's been mentioned in interviews that Portman did "a lot" of her own pointe work (whatever that means), and there was a charity auction a few months ago where she donated a pair of her used pointe shoes.

She probably did the piqué turns herself. If I remember correctly, they were single piqué turns en dedans, which are relatively easy. With all the intensive training she had, I would think they would have been in her grasp. (En dehors turns, also known as lame duck or step-over turns, are a lot harder.)

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Portman's tally of Best Actress awards for this film is now around 17, if we include last Friday's Critic's Choice Award which isn't cited in the Wikipedia list of awards.

Natalie Portman's acceptance speeches this weekend made waves. There was an interesting 'thanks' to the film for bringing her into contact with hubby Benjamin Millepied, during her Critic's Choice speech:

"...I keep telling Darren (director), you made me very skinny, and now you're indirectly responsible for making me fat because you introduced me to my love, [black Swan choreographer] Benjamin Millepied, and I am incredibly grateful for that most special of gifts..."

http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/b220799_critics_choice_awards_fighter_wins_few.html?cmpid=rss-000000-rssfeed-365-movienews&utm_source=eonline&utm_medium=rssfeeds&utm_campaign=rss_movienews

Also a 'naughty' mention of Millepied during her Golden Globes speech on Sunday...in keeping with the tone set by the show's emcee:

“...Benjamin choreographed the film, and also you might remember him in the movie as the guy when they ask, ‘Would you sleep with that girl?’ And he’s like, ‘Pffsh, no.’ He’s the best actor. It’s not true: He totally wants to sleep with me!” Natalie said before starting to giggle like a school girl."

http://news.softpedia.com/news/Golden-Globes-2011-Natalie-Portman-s-Speech-178600.shtml (to see the entire speech, including reaction from Benjamin)

Finally, did anyone catch E! Network's annual "Fashion Police - Golden Globes" led by Joan Rivers last night? There were lots of jabs at Portman's pink satin dress with the red applique rose. One of the critics chirped, "We know her ballet-dancer husband is straight if he liked that!" Joan herself liked the dress but not the others on the panel:

http://www.eonline.com/uberblog/fashion/index.html

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Finally, did anyone catch E! Network's annual "Fashion Police - Golden Globes" led by Joan Rivers last night? There were lots of jabs at Portman's pink satin dress with the red applique rose. One of the critics chirped, "We know her ballet-dancer husband is straight if he liked that!" Joan herself liked the dress but not the others on the panel:

Portman looked glowing and radiant. Kunis' dress would have popped if it were royal blue instead of Jolie's evergreen. Zeta-Jones also wore evergreen velvet and was a stylistic contrast to Jolie. Hathaway's dress was the best hands down. The men: Depp and Bale need to go to a barber shop; and Depp needs to buy a black tie. Pitt looked divine. The worst: IMO Bonham Carter looked outrageous. Her's was the worst "ensemble" since Bjork's swan and the gold AMEX card dress.

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.... The worst: IMO Bonham Carter looked outrageous. Her's was the worst "ensemble" since Bjork's swan and the gold AMEX card dress.

LOL! And don't forget Bonham-Carter's mismatched shoes -- one green and the other red. I can't find Joan Rivers' lines relating to ballet and "The Portman-Millepied couple" but she one-upped the male panelist who quipped about straight-vs-gay male ballet dancers' tastes. To be honest, I was half-asleep when the gang finally got around to discussing Portman's gown. "E!" channel usually repeats these Fashion Police shows; I'll try to stay awake and jot down the exact lines because of their ballet-centric nature.

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I understand and respect where you're coming from but, again, I'm coming at it from a horror/psychological thriller direction. So, from that direction, the actual quality of Portman's dancing almost disappears since it is her increasingly deranged state which captures interest.

As for the layperson's ability to judge, I wonder if everyone in the audience even picked up on the fact that Natalie Portman had a dance double in Sarah Lane. I was looking for Lane but, if you weren't, the rapid crosscutting (and the promotional hype) could fool you. Which, at the end of the day, gets us back to the proposition that Black Swan is no more about dance than Dario Argento's Suspiria is about life at a ballet academy -- unless your ballet academy is run by a coven of witches. :wink:

I understand what you are saying, but for me the really big disappointment was that the movie didn't work for me from a horror/psycho thriller direction. Having loved Pi, Requiem for a Dream and Fountain, I felt that this screenplay was really weak, and the ending very unsatisfying.

My complaint about the hype is the hype of training and weight loss - the sacrifices made by the actresses, as if that made the movie better. It has been put out there a lot, that the dance double hadn't been used much because Portman could do it herself. The hype of the movie itself conflates the ballet aspect of the movie with the horror/phycho drama of it. If not why not the continual talk about the weight loss/training.

Apart from our different reactions to Black Swan as a horror movie (and I would say I appreciated it more than I liked it), I don't think we're that far apart otherwise. I would agree with you that the movie was sold under somewhat false pretenses. It's not a movie about ballet, and could have taken place in any high-stakes environment. And Portman's training was also oversold for publicity purposes (although I admire her for making the attempt.)

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Apart from our different reactions to Black Swan as a horror movie (and I would say I appreciated it more than I liked it), I don't think we're that far apart otherwise. I would agree with you that the movie was sold under somewhat false pretenses. It's not a movie about ballet, and could have taken place in any high-stakes environment. And Portman's training was also oversold for publicity purposes (although I admire her for making the attempt.)

Agreed, and thank you miliosr for the discussion. Your statements made me examine my own ideas and opinions.

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