"Black Swan"

[Tinywhite]

For me something which may be significant (or maybe not): <and also something of a spoiler in terms of giving away the trajectory of the film>

Considering the big final performance, when Portman's character finally lets go and allows the black swan anima to consume her body and soul: how significant is it that the director and / or producers felt that the only way to represent a truly show-stopping, audience wowing ballet performance was to use CGI to enhance it?

I sense that people tend to clap enthusiastically at world class ballet houses no matter what - partly because, to those companies' credit, the quality of the dancing is such that even those new to it can see the dedication and skill it must take; partly because those new to it (like me) don't really know what constitutes really good ballet; and finally, partly out of a rather forced sense of social obligation.

But was there once a time when the dancers' actions alone was the special effect, and audiences genuinely couldn't help but give ovation after ovation? Alice Homan's history Apollo's Angels is suggesting to me that there was. Aronofsky's film's use of technology to enhance the performance may support Homan's final assertion that ballet is slowly losing its place in the hearts and minds of contemporary (mass) audiences. Conversely, the success of the film and the interest it's generating may point towards a new way ballet can work: somewhere in the conjunction of technology and performance (something Wayne McGregor's ballets often point towards).

However, this may just go back to SandyMcKean's point 2., above - Portman obviously cannot be expected to deliver the kind of prima ballerina magic that could be believed to have brought the house down. Hence, CGI.

[Leigh Witchel]

Was there anyone else who listened to the last line and wondered how any dancer, no matter how nutty, could fall out of an overhead press in the third act - and not only finish the performance without a fractured kneecap but think it was perfect?

Girlfriend. It wasn't perfect.

[Simon G]

Did anyone else notice that in Millepied's reworking of the cygnets they suddenly broke rank and started doing a pseudo tribal war dance type jig with splayed hands and raised arms which turned around and faced upstage?

[dirac]

#3 has nothing to do with the film or ballet. It is simply a human interest story of how dedicated to their craft some actors can be. This part of the publicity could be just the same if some actor worked hard at skiing to make a ski movie, or worked hard to get into a role that portrays a rock star.

Actually, these stories are part and parcel of the movie's marketing campaign - a very skillful one in this case - and also of Portman's Oscar campaign,which is in full swing, most of it calculated to minimize the fact that Portman, whatever the degree of her offscreen labors, doesn't do any real dancing.

(One might get the impression from these stories and others that being a movie star is a grueling endeavor, like the peach picking done by the migrant workers in The Grapes of Wrath.)

[SandyMcKean]

One might get the impression from these stories and others that being a movie star is a grueling endeavor.....

I've actually worked on a number of films with big name stars on location. They often work far harder than one might think.

[Helene]

Just about every movie about a specialized subject is scrutinized by experts for authenticity and many are criticized for giving an impression of the subject that is false and/or superficial and/or opportunistic and/or misleading. In this case I believe the advanced press and marketing campaign for the movie suggested an authenticity that is misleading.

[Simon G]

Was there anyone else who listened to the last line and wondered how any dancer, no matter how nutty, could fall out of an overhead press in the third act - and not only finish the performance without a fractured kneecap but think it was perfect?

Girlfriend. It wasn't perfect.

In fairness to her Leigh, she was rapidly exsanguinating from a shard of glass embedded in her abdomen so you can forgive her for some short term memory loss.

[Leigh Witchel]

What I really do not understand, Simon, is why the Royal Ballet didn't snap her up in a flash to do all the remaining performances of "Black Swan Lake." Instead of a True Swan, they've got some chicks named Marianela and Tamara doing it while I visit.

Who are these women anyway? They are certainly not Natalie Portman!

[dirac]

Instead of a True Swan, they've got some chicks named Marianela and Tamara doing it while I visit.

According to news reports some prospective Royal Ballet ticket buyers wanted to know which nights Natalie Portman would be dancing. You gotta wonder sometimes.

how significant is it that the director and / or producers felt that the only way to represent a truly show-stopping, audience wowing ballet performance was to use CGI to enhance it?

tinywhite, some kind of enhancement, CGI or otherwise, can be expected in ballet movies, if only if it's the kind of helpful cutting that kept Leslie Browne from being totaled by Baryshnikov. The big ballet in "The Red Shoes" couldn't possibly have taken place onstage and the film winks at that (although Moira Shearer didn't need help in any department).

[Simon G]

What I really do not understand, Simon, is why the Royal Ballet didn't snap her up in a flash to do all the remaining performances of "Black Swan Lake." Instead of a True Swan, they've got some chicks named Marianela and Tamara doing it while I visit.

Who are these women anyway? They are certainly not Natalie Portman!

Don't forget Leigh, our Black Swan is with cygnet.

[Mashinka]

Is this a first?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8337522/Man-shot-dead-for-eating-popcorn-too-loudly-during-Black-Swan.html

[Simon G]

Is this a first?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8337522/Man-shot-dead-for-eating-popcorn-too-loudly-during-Black-Swan.html

I can sympathise, Mashinka. By the time the credits rolled I was ready to shoot myself in the head.

[papeetepatrick]

Is this a first?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8337522/Man-shot-dead-for-eating-popcorn-too-loudly-during-Black-Swan.html

I can sympathise, Mashinka. By the time the credits rolled I was ready to shoot myself in the head.

You know, Simon, that's neither funny nor witty. Surprised at you.

[Natalia]

For those interested, the DVD and Blu-Ray versions will be out on March 8, soon after the Oscars.

Announcement of the release date: http://filmonic.com/black-swan-dvd-release-date

DVD - http://www.amazon.com/Black-Swan-Natalie-Portman/dp/B0041KKYEM/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1298404083&sr=8-1

Blu - http://www.amazon.com/Black-Swan-Blu-ray-Natalie-Portman/dp/B0041KKYEW/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1298404083&sr=8-2

These are direct links but you can also link to Amazon through our board (top of the masthead).

I don't think that BalletTalkers will be pumping-up the sales but Jennifer Ringer gave it a 'thumbs up' in her interview with Oprah.

[dirac]

Is this a first?

http://www.telegraph...Black-Swan.html

I can sympathise, Mashinka. By the time the credits rolled I was ready to shoot myself in the head.

Oh, it wasn't that bad.

I guess it just goes to show that one should be careful about potential offense to fellow audience members. Especially in concealed carry states.

[papeetepatrick]

Typical.

I guess it just goes to show that one should be careful about potential offense to fellow audience members. Especially in concealed carry states.

I guess it just goes to show that on a board as politically correct as this one--where the crimes that Polanski may have committed (sodomy had been mentioned?), have to be read about elsewhere, for example; and even a discussion about Toni's 'The Surrender' would not be possible--that jokes about senseless REAL LIFE murders can be thought to be so sophisticated and clever.

[Liotarded]

Just about every movie about a specialized subject is scrutinized by experts for authenticity and many are criticized for giving an impression of the subject that is false and/or superficial and/or opportunistic and/or misleading.

Exactly. For example I'm a seasoned four-star party general (though in my old age recovery takes longer) and I thought the scene where Nina and Lily are dancing with those two guys brilliantly captures the moment of full-on clubbing. Much more so than many movies "about" clubbing.

I'm relatively new to the world of ballet and since "a little learning is a dangerous thing," I'm deadly. So watch out here come my comments. I watched Black Swan three times. When done well, I enjoy being bombarded with lots of stuff going on at once and in my opinion BS nails that, not only visually but in underlying story. The pre-ballet me says thumbs up, solid film.

The beginner ballet enthusiast me is bipolar though. When I first heard about this Darren Aronovsky project, I was excited. What a happy coincidence now that my interest in ballet is sparked, a talented director is taking on the subject. Disappointment followed when I heard Nat Portman was the lead. "She doesn't even LOOK like a ballerina!" I sulked. All interest was zapped out of me when I saw the trailer, it just hit me the complete wrong way. But I gave in and saw it. I was thrilled. Now after discovering this forum and reading comments from a slew of folks much more ballet knowledgeable than I am, it's even more thrilling to discuss.

Does BS Accurately Depict The Ballet World

No clue, I have zilch personal experience with the ballet world other than attending an adult intro course. But from reading autobiographies and biographies and watching documentaries plus witnessing the way some dancers behave in the wings, I wager at the elite level ballet is definitely competitive and demanding. What a great environment for self-doubt, anxiety and resentment which are key components of BS. N.B., of course there's more to it but those things are present. The filmmakers did their homework. Way too many instances of things found in ballet lore are present: the company members at rehearsal frantically removing all warm up clothes when Thomas enters; a quick Bolshoi reference right at the beginning; lugging a practice tutu like a post-battle Spartan.

Did Nat Portman Train Hard

We've all heard Mary Helen Bowers praise Nat Portman for putting in the hours. And we've watched the brief "making of" footage. I don't think we'll see more of Nat Portman's actual training regimen until the DVD extra features are available. I for one don't feel bamboozled Nat's head is stuck on a real dancer's body. Not once did anything in BS look fake to my untrained eye. If the training Nat did at least contributed to CGI being that much more seamless, mission accomplished. Physically she was believable too, at least enough to shut me up about that.

Is BS Good For Ballet

I'd say yes or at least it isn't bad for it. No existing or budding ballet enthusiasts are going to be put off by the movie to stop liking ballet. But if it attracts folks to ballet, whether in a small or big way, great. My concern is watching interviews where the interviewer obviously is on the hunt to get the guest to say the worst possible thing about ballet (e.g., Oprah looking mortified as she asks Jenifer Ringer about the shocking practice of point shoe destruction).

Does A Movie About Ballet Need Gimmicks To Be Appealing To A Wide Audience

A poster here mentioned this and I think it's fascinating. After watching Nina twirl and whirl and transform into a winged, feathered black swan, might someone who is amazed be bored with the real-life production? That makes me cringe but part of me recognizes why someone would think so.

In closing, I'm glad this movie was made, I'm glad I saw it and I'll be buying the DVD. But guess what, if I really feel like watching a movie about ballet I'll do what another poster here wrote and Netflix The Turning Point.

[GNicholls]

Just about every movie about a specialized subject is scrutinized by experts for authenticity and many are criticized for giving an impression of the subject that is false and/or superficial and/or opportunistic and/or misleading.

Exactly. For example I'm a seasoned four-star party general (though in my old age recovery takes longer) and I thought the scene where Nina and Lily are dancing with those two guys brilliantly captures the moment of full-on clubbing. Much more so than many movies "about" clubbing.

I'm relatively new to the world of ballet and since "a little learning is a dangerous thing," I'm deadly. So watch out here come my comments. I watched Black Swan three times. When done well, I enjoy being bombarded with lots of stuff going on at once and in my opinion BS nails that, not only visually but in underlying story. The pre-ballet me says thumbs up, solid film.

The beginner ballet enthusiast me is bipolar though. When I first heard about this Darren Aronovsky project, I was excited. What a happy coincidence now that my interest in ballet is sparked, a talented director is taking on the subject. Disappointment followed when I heard Nat Portman was the lead. "She doesn't even LOOK like a ballerina!" I sulked. All interest was zapped out of me when I saw the trailer, it just hit me the complete wrong way. But I gave in and saw it. I was thrilled. Now after discovering this forum and reading comments from a slew of folks much more ballet knowledgeable than I am, it's even more thrilling to discuss.

Does BS Accurately Depict The Ballet World

No clue, I have zilch personal experience with the ballet world other than attending an adult intro course. But from reading autobiographies and biographies and watching documentaries plus witnessing the way some dancers behave in the wings, I wager at the elite level ballet is definitely competitive and demanding. What a great environment for self-doubt, anxiety and resentment which are key components of BS. N.B., of course there's more to it but those things are present. The filmmakers did their homework. Way too many instances of things found in ballet lore are present: the company members at rehearsal frantically removing all warm up clothes when Thomas enters; a quick Bolshoi reference right at the beginning; lugging a practice tutu like a post-battle Spartan.

Did Nat Portman Train Hard

We've all heard Mary Helen Bowers praise Nat Portman for putting in the hours. And we've watched the brief "making of" footage. I don't think we'll see more of Nat Portman's actual training regimen until the DVD extra features are available. I for one don't feel bamboozled Nat's head is stuck on a real dancer's body. Not once did anything in BS look fake to my untrained eye. If the training Nat did at least contributed to CGI being that much more seamless, mission accomplished. Physically she was believable too, at least enough to shut me up about that.

Is BS Good For Ballet

I'd say yes or at least it isn't bad for it. No existing or budding ballet enthusiasts are going to be put off by the movie to stop liking ballet. But if it attracts folks to ballet, whether in a small or big way, great. My concern is watching interviews where the interviewer obviously is on the hunt to get the guest to say the worst possible thing about ballet (e.g., Oprah looking mortified as she asks Jenifer Ringer about the shocking practice of point shoe destruction).

Does A Movie About Ballet Need Gimmicks To Be Appealing To A Wide Audience

A poster here mentioned this and I think it's fascinating. After watching Nina twirl and whirl and transform into a winged, feathered black swan, might someone who is amazed be bored with the real-life production? That makes me cringe but part of me recognizes why someone would think so.

In closing, I'm glad this movie was made, I'm glad I saw it and I'll be buying the DVD. But guess what, if I really feel like watching a movie about ballet I'll do what another poster here wrote and Netflix The Turning Point.

[SandyMcKean]

Great post Liotarded.

I would only add one thing.......none of us should lose sight of the fact that of all the classic ballet stories that could have been used, the film makers chose Swan Lake with it's highly unusual "dual-personality" of the white and black swan being danced by the same dancer (and IMHO on some level even in the story the 2 characters are 2 sides of the same coin). One might not like how the world of ballet is depicted in BS, but you have to give the film makers credit for taking that basic dual-personality idea and running with it.

[GNicholls]

I'm also relatively new to ballet. My reaction to Black Swan was like my reaction to Hitchcock's Psycho which I also saw recently -- a completely drained feeling, followed by anger. Like the latter film Black Swan succeeds as a psycho-sexual thriller. One could stop there.

However, I personally have a hunch (as a musician) that in his choice of subject matter Aronofsky is wrestling with Romanticism as well as (more than?) with ballet. Swan Lake is considered by many the high point of Russian Romantic ballet, which as revamped by Petipa-Ivanov and in later versions has remained at the pinnacle for over a century. Its libretto is based on Germanic folk tale elements, as are many nineteenth-century German musical and dramatic works. Here are some associations that come to mind -- the swan imagery and Tchaikovsky's leitmotif reference Wagner's arch-Romantic opera Lohengrin; the leitmotif gives more than a wink to the first movement theme of Schubert's Unfinished Symphony; Schubert's last volume of lieder (songs) -- containing many of his greatest -- was published as Schwanengessaenge. Tchaikovsky would have been well aware of these associations. And then there's Tchaikovsky's own swan song, the Symphony No. 6 (Pathetique) whose premiere he conducted nine days before his death. The Unfinished Symphony, Swan Lake and the Pathetique are all in the key of B minor, which seems to be a key of personal tragedy for Tchaikovsky.

In Black Swan's portrayal, the ballet Swan Lake is hoist on its own petard, its evil side seeping out from the work to become the ethos of the whole production. Long-standing critiques of nineteenth-century Romanticism as being too morbid, inflammatory of unhealthy passions, and connected to mental illness are familiar. I find that Black Swan's hyper-emphasis on the demonic invokes these same critiques and is really over-the-top. There is personal tragedy in life and in art, and to me Swan Lake and the other Romantic works cited above are very touching and meaningful if considered in this light.

[Mme. Hermine]

[dirac]

Did anyone else notice that in Millepied's reworking of the cygnets they suddenly broke rank and started doing a pseudo tribal war dance type jig with splayed hands and raised arms which turned around and faced upstage?

The scariest part of the movie for my money. Well, there was Winona Ryder's eye makeup.

[Natalia]

This is also in Links. Last Friday (Mar 25), ABT soloist Sarah Lane 'went public' on her feelings about the Black Swan experience (top management & Millepied downplaying her contributions to the film...what she danced vs what Portman danced):

http://blog.movies.yahoo.com/blog/1000-natalie-portman-slammed-by-her-black-swan-dance-double

[miliosr]

Entertainment Weekly is on the case:

http://insidemovies.ew.com/2011/03/25/portman-black-swan-double/

[dirac]

A friendly reminder that this is a discussion thread and we don't need too many links standing alone - that's what we have the Links for - and as it happens both these items appeared there last week. Thanks.

I'm sorry Lane feels this way but I don't see any grounds for her beef. I can understand how it might be grating to read glowing and uninformed praise of Portman's "dancing" but that's par for the course in the life of a double.