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...It's not a movie about ballet,....

Oh, I forgot. It's about NASCAR. :)

I stand by my remark. You could have made the exact same movie about an associate at a law firm trying to make partner or an overachieving high school student trying to get accepted into an Ivy League school. The only difference is that ballet is more visually stimulating.

I would agree with you that the movie was sold under somewhat false pretenses

Who exactly did the selling; and what exactly was the sales pitch you found misleading?

(1) I think the studio was Fox (would have to watch the credits again), and

(2) The early publicity I read/saw made it sound like Black Swan would have a lot to say about the ballet. I didn't think it had anything to say about the ballet but had a lot to say about a diseased mind closing in on itself.

We may just have to agree to disagree on those points, though.

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Apart from our different reactions to Black Swan as a horror movie (and I would say I appreciated it more than I liked it), I don't think we're that far apart otherwise. I would agree with you that the movie was sold under somewhat false pretenses. It's not a movie about ballet, and could have taken place in any high-stakes environment. And Portman's training was also oversold for publicity purposes (although I admire her for making the attempt.)

Agreed, and thank you miliosr for the discussion. Your statements made me examine my own ideas and opinions.

Thank you as well for the discussion.

I'm a horror movie fan so, for me, it has been interesting trying to position Black Swan on the continuum of horror films rather than trying to position it on the Red Shoes/Turning Point/Center Stage continuum.

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We may just have to agree to disagree on those points, though.

Yep. I agree to disagree. :wink:

The early publicity I read/saw made it sound like Black Swan would have a lot to say about the ballet.

FWIW, I didn't get that impression at all.....(which is what puzzled me when I first started reading the negative comments about how the film was a poor representation of ballet).

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The early publicity I read/saw made it sound like Black Swan would have a lot to say about the ballet.

FWIW, I didn't get that impression at all.....(which is what puzzled me when I first started reading the negative comments about how the film was a poor representation of ballet).

There was a substantial amount of advanced publicity about how Natalie Portman had danced as a teenager, had gone into serious ballet training for the film, had lost a bunch of weight to be believable as a ballerina, had spent extensive time with Benjamin Millepied to prepare for the dance parts of the role, etc. etc. I would have expected this to feature ballet, but as described by those who have seen it, ballet is an excuse to have a controlling mother and a Svengali figure.

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The early publicity I read/saw made it sound like Black Swan would have a lot to say about the ballet.

FWIW, I didn't get that impression at all.....(which is what puzzled me when I first started reading the negative comments about how the film was a poor representation of ballet).

There was a substantial amount of advanced publicity about how Natalie Portman had danced as a teenager, had gone into serious ballet training for the film, had lost a ton of weight, had spent extensive time with Benjamin Millepied to prepare for the dance parts of the role, etc. etc. I would have expected this to feature ballet, but as described by those who have seen it, ballet is an excuse to have a controlling mother and a Svengali figure.

In addition, there was much talk from the chief participants in the movie about exploring the "dark side" of ballet, the harshness, intensity, competitiveness, etc., as Leigh noted much earlier in this long thread. In fairness it should be noted that several dancers who commented on "Black Swan" willingly took up the same themes.

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There was a substantial amount of advanced publicity about how Natalie Portman had danced as a teenager....

The original premise of this mini-discussion was that the "early publicity" gave the impression that the film "would have a lot to say about the ballet". The items you mention here don't seem to have much to do with ballet, but rather much to do with how the actress prepared for the role (I believe Micky Rourke also did a great deal of prep for Aronofsky's previous film "The Wrestler").

Perhaps BalletAlert type folks read a lot into the advanced publicity hoping for a film that would be about ballet per se (as opposed to being set against the backdrop of ballet). Here's a fact. I just went to the official Black Swan website. There I found what they call a synopsis of the film. I copied these words from this official web page:

A psychological thriller set in the world of NYC ballet.....Black Swan takes a thrilling and at times terrifying journey though the psyche of a young ballerina.....

Seems like a fair description to me. Nowhere in the entire synopsis does it indicate (at least to me) that the film has "a lot to say about ballet".

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^ It's been mentioned in interviews that Portman did "a lot" of her own pointe work (whatever that means), and there was a charity auction a few months ago where she donated a pair of her used pointe shoes.

She probably did the piqué turns herself. If I remember correctly, they were single piqué turns en dedans, which are relatively easy. With all the intensive training she had, I would think they would have been in her grasp. (En dehors turns, also known as lame duck or step-over turns, are a lot harder.)

Actually she didn't (I thought she did it too at first). The special effect company has a sample reel up showing their work on Black Swan and they use that pique sequence as an example of superimposing Portman's face onto Sarah Lane.

http://www.lookfx.com/works.html (and then click on the Black Swan reel)

Pretty interesting. I'm guessing the only work Portman actually did showing her feet are the scenes toward the beginning at the barre and one sequence where they are rehearsing the pas and you can see how badly her feet look.

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Seems like a fair description to me. Nowhere in the entire synopsis does it indicate (at least to me) that the film has "a lot to say about ballet".

If you watch the trailer for "The Turning Point", you wouldn't think it has a lot to say about ballet, either:

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Seems like a fair description to me. Nowhere in the entire synopsis does it indicate (at least to me) that the film has "a lot to say about ballet".

If you watch the trailer for "The Turning Point", you wouldn't think it has a lot to say about ballet, either:

however i like that i am seeing acting faces that belong to the dancing bodies. :)

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[ADMIN BEANIE ON]

A gentle reminder that only links to blogs by dance professionals, professional critics, and blogs hosted on this site are valid on Ballet Alert!

[ADMIN BEANIE OFF]

Apologies Helene. I've always found it such a consistently 'professionally' written and put together site (and by an industry insider) that I never thought it wouldn't qualify. But in hindsight I should've checked first. Shame though, as it deconstructs the film better than any 'professional' review I've read so far (which is quite a lot!) ..... still I'm sure in a few years the mainstream critics will revisit the film and figure out the rest of it! :clapping:

Meanwhile, I understand the rules and will resist posting such links again :)

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I'm not so sure that this film is not about ballet. I've seen that "mom" at many a ballet competition or other ballet-specific situation, for example. Huge list could be made. Maybe it's painful for some insiders to admit that "Everything is NOT beautiful at the ballet."

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In a review of Ms. Portman's new film, No Strings Attached, which also stars Ashton Kutcher, NY Times critic A.O. Scott writes:

"Ms. Portman can now claim what appears to be a unique distinction: She may be the only Golden Globe-winning actress to simulate sex on screen with two former members of the cast of “That ’70s Show.”

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Actually she didn't (I thought she did it too at first). The special effect company has a sample reel up showing their work on Black Swan and they use that pique sequence as an example of superimposing Portman's face onto Sarah Lane.

http://www.lookfx.com/works.html (and then click on the Black Swan reel)

Pretty interesting. I'm guessing the only work Portman actually did showing her feet are the scenes toward the beginning at the barre and one sequence where they are rehearsing the pas and you can see how badly her feet look.

Thanks for the link! Amazing what they can do with special effects now. And I guess that explains why movie budgets have become so bloated. All that time and effort on a very short scene that only a balletomane is going to (perhaps) notice.

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Watching how beautifully well (and relatively easily, for an expert) that can be done, it made me wonder at the possibilities for dance on film. You could cast any actor as a dancer and do long, uncut shots showing the choreography instead of incessant crosscut editing (as famously in Flashdance) that are supposed to fake out the audience but that drive us dance fans crazy. It's a shame they didn't use it more in Black Swan, they could have added much more substantial dance value to the movie that way. But the director doesn't seem to have been interested in that.

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Thanks all posters for all that info! The movie will premiere in my nearest town in a few days and I have decided that it will not be worth braving a snowstorm, unreliable trains and icy roads for this. Not to speak of the price of the tixs. So I will just do what I normally do in doubtful situations - I will call my friend and he will fix it for me should I get too curious after all.

I am rather amazed at the violence of some of the posters' views, but realize that it was just about to be expected. Yet, it is secondary that it is about ballet, am I wrong in supposing that for us ballet people we think it is a bit of sacrilege that the very image of ballet is sullied in such a way. Are ballet fans a touchy lot? Would there be such a storm about the medical (or any other) profession?

However, reading reviews in various papers it does not seem to be a good movie, ballet theme or no ballet theme. But I just fear that it will be doing ballet, as an art, a great disservice. :mad:

:off topic: I will probably not go to the movies until I will be able to go and watch myself. Yes, now I have said it, yours truly (not dancing though) is in a movie coming soon. Sorry, just couldnt resist :blushing:

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NYCB added a performance of SL on Feb 11, ditching a mixed bill program on that date in order to take full advantage of robust SL ticket sales. I think the added performance is now virtually sold out. I'm not sure if the movie fueled the demand for SL tickets, since SL sold out last year at NYCB. Also, SL always sells well at ABT.

By the way, there is a very funny mash-up of video from Portman's speech at the Golden Globe Awards. You can find it at www.collegehumor.com. Use the words Natalie Portman Extended Laugh to find the video.

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The early publicity I read/saw made it sound like Black Swan would have a lot to say about the ballet.

FWIW, I didn't get that impression at all.....(which is what puzzled me when I first started reading the negative comments about how the film was a poor representation of ballet).

There was a substantial amount of advanced publicity about how Natalie Portman had danced as a teenager, had gone into serious ballet training for the film, had lost a bunch of weight to be believable as a ballerina, had spent extensive time with Benjamin Millepied to prepare for the dance parts of the role, etc. etc. I would have expected this to feature ballet, but as described by those who have seen it, ballet is an excuse to have a controlling mother and a Svengali figure.

Here's the next rollout of publicity for Portman's Oscar campaign...highlighting the sheer amount of training she had to go through to have her face pasted on Sarah Lane's body (as shown very clearly in the special effect reel):

The emphasis on her training and the dance have been a huge part of the push for the movie, especially recently. At least in this video you can tell all the "dancing" is hers!

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Here's the next rollout of publicity for Portman's Oscar campaign...highlighting the sheer amount of training she had to go through to have her face pasted on Sarah Lane's body (as shown very clearly in the special effect reel):....

That SFX reel no longer shows the head replacement stuff (at least not for Portman). So presumably the original reel must have been reedited and replaced with those bits missed out for some reason.... :dunno:

:wink:

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Seems to me that 3 quite distinct things are being conflated in this sub-discussion:

1. Black Swan is an accurate representation of ballet itself.

2. Natalie Portman as a good ballet dancer.

3. Natalie Portman worked hard to prepare for this role.

My original comment had to do with #1. I still don't see that the film makers pushed the film as a docudrama of ballet itself; yet it seems to me that most of the criticism I read in BA about the film centers on this misconception.

Frankly in regard to #2, I find it hard to believe that folks criticize Portman's dancing technique. No one claims that Portman is an accomplished ballet dancer. For heavens sake, she is an actress. If I see a film like "The Wrestler" should I expect Mickey Rourke to have the same skills as a real wrestler? What's amazing is how well Rourke and Portman as actors were able to create the illusion as well as they do.

#3 has nothing to do with the film or ballet. It is simply a human interest story of how dedicated to their craft some actors can be. This part of the publicity could be just the same if some actor worked hard at skiing to make a ski movie, or worked hard to get into a role that portrays a rock star.

One can either like the movie or dislike it (personally I liked it very much), but please let's not criticize it on the basis that it does not accurately reflect the actual world of ballet. The Nutcracker isn't an accurate reflection of the typical 19th century aristocratic Christmas Eve either.

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Here's the next rollout of publicity for Portman's Oscar campaign...highlighting the sheer amount of training she had to go through to have her face pasted on Sarah Lane's body (as shown very clearly in the special effect reel):....

That SFX reel no longer shows the head replacement stuff (at least not for Portman). So presumably the original reel must have been reedited and replaced with those bits missed out for some reason.... :dunno:

:wink:

Wow. Guess someone got in trouble for revealing the secrets!!

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