Bad Accents in Movies

[papeetepatrick]

Bart, I agree that the level of American Acting has improved enormously. There are many Juilliard grads among the best.

Yes, Kevin Kline and Kevin Spacey and Audra MacDonald among others.

[bart]

Zerbinetta's reference to the really fine character actor Laura Linney encouraged me to look her up: she's Juilliard (after graduating from Brown).

And how about her costar in The Savages, Philip Seymour Hoffman? I don't know if he's done "foreign" -- but his voice as Truman Capote was definitely "alien" and absolutely spot on.

Since this is "Ballet Talk," perhaps we should start a parallel thread: Most implausible princes and princesses in ballet. There are many dancers -- especially, alas, Americans -- who simply cannot do aristocracy, noblesse oblige, grandeur, hauteur, and the like. I saw an Aurora just a few months ago .... but that's a different thread.

[papeetepatrick]

It is not only just the well-trained American stage actors who can do the British accents. I couldn't remember some of them last night, but they're coming back to me now. Ann-Margret is marvelous as Lady Booby in Joseph Andrews and I can find nothing off in her accent on a recent 2nd viewing, given that we may not know exactly what 18th century English accents sounded like. She did imitate Edith Evans's Lady Bracknell's rolled French r's as part of her upper-class parvenu's privilege. She was also very much at home with Glanda Jackson and Julie Christie and Alan Bates in 'Return of the Soldier.' She is musical, and that has a lot to do with ability to do accents.

But what's also interesting is that English actors can often be in American films without their necessarily having to be an English character or even get rid of the accent. Cary Grant is not quite purely American, and Deborah Kerr is definitely not, but it also never really seems as if they should try that hard to sound it, because the films were not all that regional nor local for the most part, I think. Vanessa Redgrave did need to work to get Isadora's California accent right by that time, and she did.

Another early example of the accent not mattering was Charles Boyer, who could be in anything without having to suppress his French accent.

I'm not sure what Gilbert Roland was supposed to be sounding like as the Cisko Kid, but it can't have mattered too much, what with all those gang-songs on the horses.

Another American master of accents, including British, is Julie Harris. It does always that 'Julie Harris sound', but I always get used to it after awhile. But there are old Hallmark Hall of Fame shows where she did Queen Victoria, etc., and she's just never sloppy with such things.

[zerbinetta]

Now there were "Scotch-Irish", but I don't believe that there were many "Erse-Scots" since the days of St. Columba!

During the mid to late 20C there was a great influx of the Irish into the Glasgow area, mostly from the Northern Counties, among them perhaps the ancestors of James McAvoy, since he spells his name Mc and not Mac.

[Mel Johnson]

I don't have a copy of Cornelius Ryan's The Longest Day handy, so I can't check on whether the Flanagan character is an actual historical person, or a Zanuck-invented "Greek chorus" for the movie. Would this migration have been in place long enough for a 30something "career private" in the British Army in 1944?

[bart]

Ann-Margret is marvelous as Lady Booby in Joseph Andrews and I can find nothing off in her accent on a recent 2nd viewing, given that we may not know exactly what 18th century English accents sounded like. She did imitate Edith Evans's Lady Bracknell's rolled French r's as part of her upper-class parvenu's privilege.

She was also very much at home with Glanda Jackson and Julie Christie and Alan Bates in 'Return of the Soldier.' She is musical, and that has a lot to do with ability to do accents.

Good points, patrick. I'm also a huge admirer of Ann-Margret, on many levels. It makes sense that the ability to listen to -- and internalize -- sound patterns (whether vocal or music) would be a precondition for being able to imitate them. It also explains why some can do a pretty good job with isolated phrases or simple sentences, but can't manage the flow of real dialogue.

Your point may also explain why so many non-Brits can do widely available generic "upperclass" English accents, and stage Irish or Scots, while not being able to handle the numerous, but less frequently heard, class and regional variants in the British Isles.

A related matter: why is it that some people can pick up large amounts of well-accented French, for instance, when on holiday, while others cannot proceed beyond a truly awful 'Bone Joor"?

[Mashinka]

Your point may also explain why so many non-Brits can do widely available generic "upperclass" English accents, and stage Irish or Scots, while not being able to handle the numerous, but less frequently heard, class and regional variants in the British Isles.

Virtually everyone in Britain has an accent either class or regional, as for upper class you can spot them by the way they pronounce the word house as 'hice'.

In classical theatre an absence of accent is the aim, a way of speaking that sounds wonderful, but something rarely heard outside of the theatre, in theory this should be as easily achieved by American actors as British ones. For such a tiny country Britain has scores of regional accents and some are so impenetrable (e.g. Geordie) they require sub-titles in TV interviews. By the way I'm experiencing more and more difficulty in understanding dialogue in American films now and feel the use of subtitles would at times be helpful there too.

A related matter: why is it that some people can pick up large amounts of well-accented French, for instance, when on holiday, while others cannot proceed beyond a truly awful 'Bone Joor"?

Not just on holiday; my mother lived in England all her adult life but never lost her thick Irish accent. On the other hand I have a niece who emigrated to Australia over twenty years ago and she now speaks with a very noticeable Australian accent whereas her husband, who spent much of his childhood and adolescence in Oz still sounds pure south London.

[bart]

Your point may also explain why so many non-Brits can do widely available generic "upperclass" English accents, and stage Irish or Scots, while not being able to handle the numerous, but less frequently heard, class and regional variants in the British Isles.

Virtually everyone in Britain has an accent either class or regional, as for upper class you can spot them by the way they pronounce the word house as 'hice'

Thanks for your explanations, Mashinka. I did not express myself clearly. By "less frequently heard," I meant -- accents not heard all that often in the kind of British film and tv show that is shown in the US. (Those with access to BBC America can experience a much broader range of accents than those with access only to prestige BBC shows on Masterpiece Theater or all those Jane Austen movies.)

Why is it, I wonder, that almost everyone does better with upper class accents than with other kinds. I can mimic fairly accurately upper-class twit (Bertie Wooster), Oxford, Knightsbridge, old-school RADA, etc., but am hopeless in, let's say, East London.

On the other hand, I've noticed that British actors sometimes seem to have difficulty mastering the many distinctions among various "Southern" accents here in the U.S. They tend to go with Big Daddy or hillbilly.

[papeetepatrick]

Why is it, I wonder, that almost everyone does better with upper class accents than with other kinds. I can mimic fairly accurately upper-class twit (Bertie Wooster), Oxford, Knightsbridge, old-school RADA, etc., but am hopeless in, let's say, East London.

Because everybody wants to be upper-class English, therefore the enthusiasm for more practice is greater even though one is still Wallis Simpson underneath.

On the other hand, I've noticed that British actors sometimes seem to have difficulty mastering the many distinctions among various "Southern" accents here in the U.S. They tend to go with Big Daddy or hillbilly.

Unless you consider Elizabeth Taylor British as well as American (I'm not sure whether she ever decided, changing citizenships at one point, which was not as interesting as she thought....) Of course, it's still not subtle, and always a relative to what she imagines Scarlett O'Hara to be had she but been young enough, but she's even better in "Reflections in a Golden Eye" than "Cat on a Hot Tin Roof." I watched "Reflections" the other night, and Brando is none too wonderful with his Southern accent, but Liz is just dandy as a Daddy's girl nympho. But more subtly, there is one I can think of which is very good: Miranda Richardson in Robert Duvall's "The Apostle". She really gets the little lower-middle-class housewife from the sticks down perfectly--and that's technique at work, because she was also amazing in "Dance with a Stranger" with lower-class British accents.

I wonder what Cristian thinks of Al Pacino in 'Scarface' (or anyone.)

[Farrell Fan]

Marlon Brando has been mentioned, but not for his ridiculously overpraised and in my opinion truly awful accent/performance/throat condition in The Godfather.

[Barbara]

Yes Christian, please weigh in. I've always wondered about the Pacino Scarface accent.

[dirac]

Tom Cruise in Far and Away. He sounds like the Lucky Charms Leprechaun.

“Da! Da!”

While stars, these performers are "character actors" first of all.

Gielgud, to name only one, was not a character actor.

but his voice as Truman Capote was definitely "alien" and absolutely spot on.

I didn’t think so at all. Hoffman overdid the lisp.

It is not only just the well-trained American stage actors who can do the British accents.

Gwyneth Paltrow can do a nice Brit.

But what Ashley said is something that's very meaningful anyway, because Joanne Woodward has done all sorts of Southern accents, and she has one of the best ears of all. She can do Arkansas, she can do Georgia, Mississippi, and you can hear the differences.

That’s right, and not true of 99% of “Southern accents.” She's a marvelous actor.

I watched "Reflections" the other night, and Brando is none too wonderful with his Southern accent, but Liz is just dandy as a Daddy's girl nympho.

One of Brando’s very best and most daring performances.

Nice topic, miliosr. Thanks to everyone who's posted!

[sidwich]

I don't think Sean Connery tried at all to sound Russian in "The Hunt for Red October".

He gets a pass. He's Sean Connery.

Sean Connery always sounds like Sean Connery. Off the top of my head, he's played Irish, British, Russian and American with the same Scottish accent, including his Academy-award winning role as a Scottish-accented Irish-American cop. I guess people pay the tickets to see him be himself, and he's happy to oblige. The same is probably true of Cary Grant who played all his roles with the same faux uppercrust British accent.

Connery is always something of a special case. As 007, the Scottish accent was fine; after all "Bond" can be a Scottish name, but in The Longest Day he was playing a soldier named "Flanagan". Same accent. Now there were "Scotch-Irish", but I don't believe that there were many "Erse-Scots" since the days of St. Columba!

No, Bond is supposed to be British, and Fleming was initially unhappy with the casting. In the end, he was so happy with Connery's portrayal that he wrote into the later stories that Bond's mother was Scottish to explain away Connery's stubborn accent.

Gwyneth Paltrow can do a nice Brit.

That's because Gwyneth actually believes she's British.

On the other hand, I've noticed that British actors sometimes seem to have difficulty mastering the many distinctions among various "Southern" accents here in the U.S. They tend to go with Big Daddy or hillbilly.

Some British actors have difficulty with Regional U.S. accents generally. When I saw the original Nicholas Hytner revival of "Carousel" in the 1990's at the National Theatre, the many residents of the small Maine town had about a dozen different American accents, and most of them were from various parts of the South. Some managed a fairly generic midline American accent, but nobody actually sounded like they were from Maine or even New England.

It is not only just the well-trained American stage actors who can do the British accents. I couldn't remember some of them last night, but they're coming back to me now. Ann-Margret is marvelous as Lady Booby in Joseph Andrews and I can find nothing off in her accent on a recent 2nd viewing, given that we may not know exactly what 18th century English accents sounded like. She did imitate Edith Evans's Lady Bracknell's rolled French r's as part of her upper-class parvenu's privilege. She was also very much at home with Glanda Jackson and Julie Christie and Alan Bates in 'Return of the Soldier.' She is musical, and that has a lot to do with ability to do accents.

While I think some of it is being born with a good ear for languages and accents, Ann-Margaret attended Northwestern (although I don't think she graduated). And I'm not sure that English is her first language. I think she was born in Scandinavia somewhere.

[Petra]

QUOTE

While stars, these performers are "character actors" first of all.

Gielgud, to name only one, was not a character actor.

In the West End, Gielgud was a leading man, but in Hollywood, he was a character actor.

Going back to the topic of Brits doing American accents, I read an article recently (in one of the English newspapers, but I don't remember which one) that suggested that the change in English accents over the last forty years or so has helped English actors to get work in the US, not necessarily as stars but bread-and-butter work in television and movies. Not only have some of the class distinctions decreased (just listen to the difference between Queen Elisabeth and her grandchildren), but the new London accent is much closer, mainly in its slurring of sylables, to a generic American accent.

[papeetepatrick]

[i think she was born in Scandinavia somewhere.

Yes, Sweden, I'm quite sure. Ann-Margret Olsson.

One of Brando’s very best and most daring performances.

Yes, and I can't personally dislike his Godfather either, although Farrell Fan has told of some of his growing up in East Harlem, so may know more about what the accent should be. It is interesting, though, that most who have posted have not thought his ear for any accents was exemplary, and this goes along with what Bart and I were talking about musical ear--all you have to do is watch "Guys and Dolls" to see he's not that musical, whether or not he's dubbed. Although that movie is musically terrible except for Sinatra, and Jean Simmons (or her dubber) doesn't sing well either. So Brando and Simmons get either the Unmusical Award or the Bad Musical Pantomime Award. Putting Sinatra in that made them both look pretty bad.

[Petra]

Australians seem to be among the worst offenders when it comes to accents: Russel Crowe played Jack Aubrey with some very distinct Australian accents and although Cate Blanchett's turn in Indiana Jones and the Kingdom of the Srystal Skull was completely camp in any case, it was strange hearing some of the Ozzie vowels coming from a supposedly Ukrainian mouth... Strangely, the movie went to great lengths to establish the precise provenance of Blanchett's character. Nicole Kidman, on the other hand, has a great ear for accents. I always get a shock when I hear her speak with her natural voice.

[dirac]

Off the top of my head, he's played Irish, British, Russian and American with the same Scottish accent, including his Academy-award winning role as a Scottish-accented Irish-American cop. I guess people pay the tickets to see him be himself, and he's happy to oblige.

So did his miner in The Molly Maguires, but then Richard Harris was no better. As carbro says, he’s Sean Connery.

The same is probably true of Cary Grant who played all his roles with the same faux uppercrust British accent.

Grant’s accent never changed, true, but would you call it upper crust? The Cockney never quite vanished and indeed it was one of the reasons he turned down the role of Henry Higgins in the movie version of “My Fair Lady” – I gather he was worried he’d sound too much like the pre-transformation Eliza. Grant is elegant, but he’s no toff.

In the West End, Gielgud was a leading man, but in Hollywood, he was a character actor.

Not really, GWTW. Gielgud was at various times in his career a matinee idol and/or classical star on the stage, and he did supporting roles late in life, but at no point was he a character actor in the traditional sense and he rarely if ever essayed the kind of character parts regularly assumed by his great rival Olivier. It doesn’t make him a lesser actor by any means, of course.

Kidman has a marvelous ear for accents, I agree.

all you have to do is watch "Guys and Dolls" to see he's not that musical, whether or not he's dubbed. Although that movis is musically terrible except for Sinatra, and Jean Simmons (or her dubber) doesn't sing well either

Neither he nor Simmons was dubbed. I can't make a case for them as singers, but I thought in their scenes together they 'acted' the songs very well and made a cute couple. And I love Stubby Kaye even if the movie isn't so great.

[Mel Johnson]

Bond is supposed to be British

When did Scotland cease to be part of Britain? Perhaps you mean English?

[dirac]

Bond is supposed to be British

When did Scotland cease to be part of Britain? Perhaps you mean English?

Yes, Mel, that's what sidwich meant. And who knows, it could cease to be part of Britain any year now.

[papeetepatrick]

(just listen to the difference between Queen Elisabeth and her grandchildren), but the new London accent is much closer, mainly in its slurring of sylables, to a generic American accent.

Oh yes! Heavens, what a sound! going along with dirac's Higgins history. I didn't know Grant had been offered the role, and I am so glad he didn't do it, because Rex Harrison's speech is one of the greatest pleasures in theater and film--in "Blithe Spirit", I never even care what's going on, it's his movie and he was just great.

[dirac]

Although now that I think about it, I seem to remember Fleming saying in one of the books that Bond's father was Scottish. A real Bond expert would know for certain, of course.

[Mel Johnson]

I doubt that even the most determined Scottish Nationalist envisions an engineering project so great as to sever Scotland from Britain and to remove it from the area, which extends from the Orkneys through Great Britain, and into north coastal France, Lesser (or Little) Britain. Scotland could perhaps cease to be part of the United Kingdom, but geography is geography.

[4mrdncr]

I used to cringe all the time (70's-90) hearing British actors do an American accent, because, as observed above, it was either "Big Daddy" or "hillbilly", and never northern. Until I heard Jane Seymour (no not as a Bond girl, but shortly after in a tv mini-series--where I think she was Emmy nominated if not winning), and more, before she became a Hollywood actress. It wasn't exactly northern/New England but it was definately not that horribly exaggerated Southern everyone else at that time used. To my ears, it was the first time I heard that "mid-Pond" generic accent they all strive for now.

Of course, most Americans can't do a British accent because they only concentrate on the pronunciation, and never the pitch/intonation which goes up and down very distinctly, and varies dramatically between the many regions/counties/cities/shires/countries in the UK. Gwyneth Paltrow did okay (Shakespeare..., Sliding Doors, Possession), because she understood this; though now, I'm beginning to think it's almost an affectation, the way she utilizes it.

An interesting corollary to the above topic, is the case of Franco Nero (Italian, long-time companion, now husband, of Vanessa Redgrave). Though his accent is still distinctly Italian, he has played many many nationalities in films or television because his accent became more generic, and thereby unplaceable to Hollywood ears.

Another person who has played many nationalities, usually without varying his accent, is Omar Sharif. He's Egyptian I think, but not sure if that is the accent one hears. So not a Russian in Dr.Zhivago, but the recent British mini-series of same, didn't have a Russian lead either or better accent.

[dirac]

Of course, most Americans can't do a British accent because they only concentrate on the pronunciation, and never the pitch/intonation which goes up and down very distinctly, and varies dramatically between the many regions/counties/cities/shires/countries in the UK.

Good point.

[sidwich]

When did Scotland cease to be part of Britain? Perhaps you mean English?

Yes, Mel, that's what sidwich meant. And who knows, it could cease to be part of Britain any year now.

Yes, of course, you're right. I meant the non-Scottish, non-Welsh, inhabitants of the island of England.

Grant’s accent never changed, true, but would you call it upper crust? The Cockney never quite vanished and indeed it was one of the reasons he turned down the role of Henry Higgins in the movie version of “My Fair Lady” – I gather he was worried he’d sound too much like the pre-transformation Eliza. Grant is elegant, but he’s no toff.

I don't think the Cockney quite vanished, either, but I think he was trying to effect something like an American-friendly uppercrust accent. It's really only recognizable as Cary Grant, and later as an imitation of Cary Grant (for example, Tony Curtis in "Some Like it Hot)."

Also: what is it about their training that allows so many British actors to work so convincingly (often impeccably) in so many kinds of American accents? I'm thinking especially of Anthony Hopkins, but there are many others. Conversely, why are so few American actors able to to the same in the opposite direction?

I wonder if the copious amounts of American-produced television being exported to the rest of the world is part of the answer as well. I am astounded how many countries now watch American television regularly. It would be inevitable than a good ear would start to attune to the pronunciation and cadences. Conversely, our American exposure to the BBC is usually limited to "Masterpiece Theatre" (unless you're a regular watcher of BBCA).

I wouldn't be surprised to hear some young foreign actor say that they learned an American accent from watching "Friends" and "Grey's Anatomy" on loop for a few weeks.