Kirov Mariinsky "vs" ABT

[agnes]

I've read that while both companies' dancers are technical experts, Kirov dancers have superior musicality than their ABT counterparts. Comments?

[Mel Johnson]

Sometimes, they do, except when they don't.

[richard53dog]

Sometimes, they do, except when they don't.

It depends on the bias of the person to which you ask the question.

[Ostrich]

I think it also depends on - how shall I put it - your "taste" in musicality, or what you are accustomed to seeing. Musicality is difficult to define exactly. Personally though, I do think Kirov dancers the more musical.

[aurora]

I think it also depends on - how shall I put it - your "taste" in musicality, or what you are accustomed to seeing. Musicality is difficult to define exactly. Personally though, I do think Kirov dancers the more musical.

There is also the fact that there are dancers who are more or less musical in every company.

This is probably especially true for ABT where the dancers come from a variety of backgrounds and training.

(I can't answer the original question as my familiarity with the Kirov is unfortunately rather limited.)

[carbro]

This does not apply to the current Kirov generation (at least as I've seen them), but time is not so distant when the principals actually seemed to lead the orchestra, resulting in serious rhythmic distortions. That may have helped them look musical, but you didn't have to listen all that closely to know that fitting the dancing to the music was actually the conductor's job. Not my idea of musicality. Dancers who stood out as musical from that era were Ayupova, Assylmuratova and, in corps and soloist roles, Sitnikova.

A problem at ABT tends to be the opposite -- a conductor who can't tell when the dancers are in trouble and need (usually) a bit more speed.

[87Sigfried87]

I've read that while both companies' dancers are technical experts, Kirov dancers have superior musicality than their ABT counterparts. Comments?

I guess I can say that the two companies represent the best of their category but they are very different in the substance.

Kirov is the symbol of the ancient russian ballet tradition: great deep interpretation,excellent lyrical dancers,perfecty-used arms,very thin and long lined bodies.

ABT is,on the other hand,the symbol of modern ballet with its brillant technique,the best You can find nowadays I think,nut maybe less felt interpretation.And then let me say that everybody now says russian method is over and old and instead American method is the actual one,the best....yeah but try and learn pure american method without the basis of the russian one....It's hard and there's the risk to become tecnically dirty!

In conclusion Kirov is the best interpretation and old tradition ballet,ABT is the future of ballet and the best techique.It's not a question of musicality.I'd only add Opera of Paris for the best technique in Europe.

[agnes]

Dancerboy87, your comments put the exact words for what I could only perceive and describe as Je ne sais quoi. I really find that these resonate with me:

Kirov is the symbol of the ancient russian ballet tradition: great deep interpretation,excellent lyrical dancers,perfecty-used arms,very thin and long lined bodies.

.

ABT is,on the other hand,the symbol of modern ballet with its brillant technique

. And having seen a little of POB performance, I find their lyrical dancers at par with Kirov.

I find that in my own dancing during and outside of class, I always have in the back of my mind those lissome, willowy European dancers to emulate.

[Ostrich]

In conclusion Kirov is the best interpretation and old tradition ballet,ABT is the future of ballet and the best techique.It's not a question of musicality.I'd only add Opera of Paris for the best technique in Europe.

A sad day for ballet when musicality is no longer used as a measure of a company's greatness.

[SanderO]

I wish I had an opportunity to see the more companies and be able to compare them. I would think one needs to see a lot of performances to reach a conclusion that one company's dancers are more "musical".

So my questions are:

How many performances would someone need to attend to see clear style distinctions in dance technique?

What is musicality in dance?

It seems odd that a dancer could lack musicality... for me they are in a very real sense a silent musical instrument of movement.

[87Sigfried87]

It seems odd that a dancer could lack musicality... for me they are in a very real sense a silent musical instrument of movement.

I think that talking about musicality has sense only in Nureyev's Choreographies,as They are world known deemed not to be very musical.I don't think a company can dance always without musicality.Maybe there's a dancer in a precise moment of the ballet who loses the exact connection between the steps and the music.Or the "corps de ballet" is not synchronized,and in some companies unluckily is never synchronized.If We are talking about synchronism It is not musicality....

[SanderO]

I will admit to be rather in awe at how some of the principals manage to move in such amazing synchronicity to the flow of the music.... not unlike watching a conductor "gesture" the music... but a thousand times better of course. If this kind of synchronicity is musicality, obviously some dancers have a remarkable ability to get it right and "not miss a beat".

This also raises in my mind how much rehearsal is required with a conductor to get his tempo... and if the dancers must always follow concept of the conductor or if the conductor asks the dancers about the tempo? Or perhaps the ballet master or something. I really don't know how this all knits together. But it is glorious when it works... Isn't it?

[innopac]

I think that talking about musicality has sense only in Nureyev's Choreographies,as They are world known deemed not to be very musical.

Dancerboy87, I am interested to know what you mean by saying that Nureyev's choreography is not very musical? Could you expand on this and perhaps give an example? Thanks. innopac

[agnes]

This also raises in my mind how much rehearsal is required with a conductor to get his tempo... and if the dancers must always follow concept of the conductor or if the conductor asks the dancers about the tempo? Or perhaps the ballet master or something. I really don't know how this all knits together. But it is glorious when it works...

It could work both ways because in the end, the music and the dance have to weave seamlessly into each other. I don't think that one necessarily leads the other. Certainly, a dancer needs to listen to the tempo to get the measure which will shape how fast or slow the movement must be executed. Also, whether the music is adagio or presto influences the emotional quality of presenting the movement. Then again, at times, the music needs to fine-tuned to the dancer where the speed might be lowered or raised a bit to accomodate the dancer's technical capability.

[87Sigfried87]

Dancerboy87, I am interested to know what you mean by saying that Nureyev's choreography is not very musical? Could you expand on this and perhaps give an example? Thanks. innopac

Well I guess the best example is Nureyev's Sleeping Beauty,both male and female variations....It is really hard to follow the music and the steps in some variations....they're so quick and so virtuous,with continous little steps like batteries,ronds and small passages of the feet which sometimes give the the impression (and not only...)not to be musical at all,or at least you find it hard to find the connection between the steps and the music.For me it is crystal clearly visible the non musicality moments in its choreographies.And I'd add that the only company I've seen that can dance almost perfectly and more mucial possible such ballets is Opera of Paris here in Europe.Hope I've been clear enough.

[carbro]

I agree with you, dancerboy 87. Nureyev's choreography often looks like an effort to squeeze as many steps as possible -- more than possible, actually -- into a phrase. Dancers who look fluid and musical in other roles suddenly jerk around frantically in his stagings. It drives me nuts.

One of Nureyev's worst choreographic transgressions is in POB's Shades act, when the Shades sharply snap their feet into fifth , like little, tutu-ed soldiers coming to attention instead of the disembodied spirits they are supposed to be.

[Mel Johnson]

One of the worst examples I can remember of Nureyev's crowding steps together was in the pas de six from Laurencia. He seemed to be adding steps just to make the women uncomfortable.

Now, "what is musicality," is a question much akin to a koan. We could supply replies all day and still not get it. But if you don't have musicality, then you can't truly be said to have technique.

[papeetepatrick]

It seems odd that a dancer could lack musicality... for me they are in a very real sense a silent musical instrument of movement.

Yes, it seems that way until you remember that there many instrumentalists and singers who definitely can be said to be 'unmusical' while even being called musicians! so the stretch is not very far to the plenty of dancers who can do the basics of keeping beats more or less--but so can amateur orchestras and high school bands. My point only that there are myriad levels to what is real musicality in a dancer, including the lower echelons of 'not being very musical', if there are in instrument players and singers as well.

[kfw]

It seems odd that a dancer could lack musicality... for me they are in a very real sense a silent musical instrument of movement.

Yes, it seems that way until you remember that there many instrumentalists and singers who definitely can be said to be 'unmusical' while even being called musicians!

You said it. And by way of related though off topic perennial puzzler of an illustration, what are all those people making all that putrid pop on the radio?

[SanderO]

overpaid for their level of talent

[87Sigfried87]

Nureyev's choreography often looks like an effort to squeeze as many steps as possible -- more than possible, actually -- into a phrase. Dancers who look fluid and musical in other roles suddenly jerk around frantically in his stagings. It drives me nuts.

Carbro,you're a genius!ahahahahah!your despription is perfect!

[innopac]

I agree with you, dancerboy 87. Nureyev's choreography often looks like an effort to squeeze as many steps as possible -- more than possible, actually -- into a phrase. Dancers who look fluid and musical in other roles suddenly jerk around frantically in his stagings. It drives me nuts.

This may have been talked about before but whose choreography in general do you feel is the most pleasurable to dance to?