SAB students going on to professional careers

[printscess]

I have seen heartbroken students with amazing talent not get into NYCB and go on to smaller and very respectful companies and do what they have been hired to do....dance, and they dance a lot. I have seen many students at SAB become apprentices, get into the corp and sit there for years. When they dance, they are the 3rd from the right, last row of the corp. While a lot of the advanced students' egos are tied up into whether they were picked for the next crop of apprentices, in reality, how much dancing is done when you are one of 100 dancers? Many of the former SAB "stars" are languishing in the corp. While NYCB has cache, a dancer's passion and life is to dance. Sometimes it is better to be a big fish in a little pond. After a few years of being 3rd from the right in the back, they either go on to smaller companies or go to college.

[Dale]

That's true. That's why it's great to enjoy the Workshop and celebrate all the wonderful young dancers at SAB, but it might not be a great forecaster of feature company approval (and I used that term on purpose). For every Paloma Herrera (lead in SAB's Raymonda Variations and now ABT star), there's a Tara Keim (lead in SAB's Allego Brillante, Concerto Barocco, and Symphonie Concertante; former dancer with American Repertory Ballet, MCB, Twyla Tharp). Both wonderful at SAB but did not have the same careers.

[printscess]

That's true. That's why it's great to enjoy the Workshop and celebrate all the wonderful young dancers at SAB, but it might not be a great forecaster of feature company approval (and I used that term on purpose). For every Paloma Herrera (lead in SAB's Raymonda Variations and now ABT star), there's a Tara Keim (lead in SAB's Allego Brillante, Concerto Barocco, and Symphonie Concertante; former dancer with American Repertory Ballet, MCB, Twyla Tharp). Both wonderful at SAB but did not have the same careers.

The majority of advanced students at SAB start at the average of 15/16. They come from schools across the country. They come to be "ballinchineized"with the hopes to be picked to get into the company. Unless you are an established star from another company, the only way to get into NYCB is by being a student at SAB. However, most of the boys and girls who start at age 8 at SAB, do not make it into the advanced level. That is a fair, since they may drop out because they lose interest, their bodies change, other things become a priority or they are told to leave. Out of 20 or so boys that start in boys 1 and 20-30 girls that start in girls 1, about 3 make it to the advanced division. In the last 5 years, I know only 2 boys who started in boys 1 make it into the company. I know many SAB students who didn't make it into the company who have happy and successful careers dancing in regional companies who dance soloist and principle roles a year out of SAB.

[Estelle]

Actually I had similar thoughts about the POB school and the POB: most POB students focus only on getting a position at POB (and from what I've been told, it happened that some of them completely gave up ballet after not getting into the company), but some remain "quadrilles" (the 5th and lowest rank in the company) for years, or even for their whole careers, and have fewer opportunities to dance than some of their peers who got into other companies. And the students who had the biggest roles in the school's program are not always those who had the best careers later- for example, some years ago, the two main roles in "Coppélia" were performed by Mathieu Ganio and Charline Gienzendanner, and while Ganio had a very fast career and got promoted to étoile (principal) very young, Gienzendanner remained a quadrille for many years and now only is coryphée (the 4th rank in the company)... However, a difference between the SAB and POB school is that there are quite a lot of ballet companies in the US, while in France the number of ballet companies unfortunately has shrunk a lot in the last decades, so job opportunities in France outside the POB are scarce, and moving to work to another country probably isn't an easy decision (and also the POB dancers, including all the corps de ballet dancers, have quite a privileged status in terms of job security, health care, etc. so it probably makes its jobs more attractive).

[Dale]

That's a choice they make - some dancers might have decided that they'd prefer to dance corps parts in a great company in a big city rather than dance leads in a smaller company in a city not New York. And others decide the reverse. Depends on the person. There are disappointments, of course. And there might be second-guessing later on on both sides.

[Estelle]

That's a choice they make - some dancers might have decided that they'd prefer to dance corps parts in a great company in a big city rather than dance leads in a smaller company in a city not New York. And others decide the reverse. Depends on the person. There are disappointments, of course. And there might be second-guessing later on on both sides.

Actually, one thing that saddened me a little bit about the POB situation (it might have changed a little in recent years, since the direction has changed) is that it seemed to me that the school itself focused almost only on getting a POB position (not encouraging much its students to audition for other companies), while the number of POB positions has been particularly low in recent years (sometimes as low as only 1 female position for example). It is such a heartache to think that some talented young dancers gave up dancing after not getting a POB position (and also, unfortunately, given the French school system, making successful studies after that sometimes can be quite difficult, as many choices have to be done early), of course it is their choice but sometimes 17 years old are not very mature and make choices that they regret - and also, as it is a state-funded school, it also is somehow a waste of taxpayers' money... Perhaps there also is some sort of arrogance from the school (considering that "POB is the best" and the rest is not interesting), I don't know, but I think it should be part of the school's role to also inform their students about other companies and to encourage them to audition for other companies (and to consider that not getting into the POB doesn't mean "wasted career").

[Helene]

There are several other issues with company-affiliated training schools: a dancer might not be temperamentally suited for a company, or might have had injuries as a student which make him/her less attractive when a company is choosing a small number to promote into apprenticeships or the main company. The dancer's type might be overrepresented in the parent company. The student may be high-maintainance as a teenager but grow out of it as a young adult.

Ultimately, most pre-professional schools have the student for one-four years, in a narrow age range. While it might ultimately be the optimal period in which to predict professional success and to choose the greatest number of students who will fill all roles -- star, loyal corps member, demisoloist -- there will be exceptions, and some of the dancers who are skipped over thrive in smaller companies or bloom later. For the lucky ones who have the choice, the student must weigh the prestige of the company, living in NYC, dancing at least twice as many performances, and having a huge repertoire against dancing bigger roles in fewer performances in a smaller company and getting more personal attention from Edward Villella, Ib Andersen, or Peter Boal, for example.

[printscess]

There are several other issues with company-affiliated training schools: a dancer might not be temperamentally suited for a company, or might have had injuries as a student which make him/her less attractive when a company is choosing a small number to promote into apprenticeships or the main company. The dancer's type might be overrepresented in the parent company. The student may be high-maintainance as a teenager but grow out of it as a young adult.

Ultimately, most pre-professional schools have the student for one-four years, in a narrow age range. While it might ultimately be the optimal period in which to predict professional success and to choose the greatest number of students who will fill all roles -- star, loyal corps member, demisoloist -- there will be exceptions, and some of the dancers who are skipped over thrive in smaller companies or bloom later. For the lucky ones who have the choice, the student must weigh the prestige of the company, living in NYC, dancing at least twice as many performances, and having a huge repertoire against dancing bigger roles in fewer performances in a smaller company and getting more personal attention from Edward Villella, Ib Andersen, or Peter Boal, for example.

Anyone who has (and has had) the honor to be taught by Peter Boal, will have been taught by a caring, gentle man who is a true artist. He values the talents and feelings of his students. PNB is lucky to have him. SAB and NYCB lost a wonderful talent and a wonderful human being.

[ViolinConcerto]

We know.

[ShesnoFonteynsMom]

Printcess, your post made some valid points, but I'm not quite sure what question you are posing. Helene, did however, and I thought her reply was excellent.

If a dancer's interest is only getting into NYCB or nothing, than I ask is that dancer an artist, a true performer, do they have a true passion for the art, or is it only about being one of the 'best'? A baseball player who only will be Yankee is not a player, is not into the game. A post HS grad who will only go to Harvard is not a scholar. I understand you are not quite stating such, but I got confused.

I don't feel that going to a smaller company is being a big fish in a small pond but, as you stated the opportunity to dance more roles, yet with fewer performance opportunities.

I think I missed your point somehow...so asking nicely, what are you saying?

[support system]

I believe that placing qualifiers on whether a dancer is a true artist, or not, by the professional aspirations they have is not valid. I would say the devotion to the craft needed to prepare young dancers for company life alone merits each of them the "true artist" designation.

Many dancers aspire only to being part of a large corps with a varied rep. There are not many dancers at SAB who do not aspire to the NYCB. That is why they are there.

[ShesnoFonteynsMom]

Support System, I don't doubt that most SAB students aspire to be in NYCB, but also wouldn't we hope that some are also looking for the opportunity to be dancers in other companies? Is SAB only about getting into NYCB? And yes, some dancers only want to be in a large company with a large rep; nothing wrong with that; perhaps others don't. As Dale stated, it is their choice.

I would say that devotion to the craft needed to prepare young people for (a ballet) company life merits one to be, a dedicated dancer, an exceptional teen, a wonderful child, a person ready for all possibilities; not necessarily a true artist. A concept I was not quibbling about.

I was just wondering what Printcess was referring to.

[carbro]

With all due respect, SS, I see many dancers, fine and accomplished, clearly motivated, whom I would not consider "artists." When a dancer gets on stage and dutifully performs the steps cleanly and at the right time, that is a good starting point. But show me heart, show me imagination and then, then I'll show you an artist. Maybe.

There are not many dancers at SAB who do not aspire to the NYCB. That is why they are there.

And there seem to be some who are unaware of the alternatives. I saw a studio talk last year in which two of the NYCB's young up-and-comers said they had never seen a major professional company in person until they entered SAB, that they had never seen any other company's stagings of the 19th century classics. Does SAB even make an effort to expose the students to ballet beyond the State Theater? Or are the students fitted with blinders?

Lack of awareness would produce dancers with a very narrow concept of the possibilities of their art. I'm always heartened when I see ABT dancers in NYCB's audience and vice versa, and but it seems it's always the same few who are adventurous enough to cross the plaza.

[printscess]

I am new to Ballet Talk and originally, when I posted, I was commenting on people's reactions to the Wein award and the SAB workshop, but I hit the wrong button and saw that I started a new topic of discussion. I wasn't asking a question, just stating an observation about SAB. The advanced students are at SAB to get into the company. That is what most of them eat, sleep and dream. During the audtion season for other companies which runs from January through May, the advanced students are told to either audtion for companies or not. Being told not to audition means that more than likely, they will be offered an apprenticeship contract with the company. After the heartbreak, the ones who are told to audition either find jobs, return for one more year to SAB or go to college. A few will be offered apprenticeships right after the workshop. NYCB has approximately 100 dancers. How much can one expect to dance?

Going to maimi city ballet or PNB where there are less dancers gives someone more opportunity to dance. A company like Oregon Ballet Theatre and North Carolina Ballet Theatre (both excellent companies) have no "star" system, where you are either an apprentice or in the corp and corp members get to dance (hence being a big fish in a little pond). The SAB students that get into other companies actually dance, where the ones that get into NYCB have the prestige of getting in, but do not get to dance as much. I don't think that I stated that if these kids do not get into NYCB they give up dancing and therefore are not true performers. However, as talented as some of these kids are, it is hard to get into companies. Many times it isn't even about talent. It can be about whether you have blond hair and they want burnettes, whether you are 5'8" and they want someone 5'6", etc. The same way actors do not get parts based on their looks, dancers to not get into companies.

To expound on what Carbo said, the artistry comes from within, but the technique is a good starting point.

[support system]

Carbro-

Point well taken on the broader meaning of being an "artist", I was merely responding to Shesno's assertion that "if a dancer's interest is only getting into NYCB or nothing..." then the artist label could not apply.

If I can fill in a bit, it is a fact that most advanced students do audition for other companies. An advantage to attending SAB is that many companies hold their NYC auditions at SAB, which vastly reduces travel expence for auditioning dancers. Hence the dancer bio references we read in companies around the USA. Few students are asked to refrain from auditioning, and those that I know of are males.

As far as banking on the future, just the very foolish would wait in confidence to be picked as an apprentice. Only Peter Martins knows who he will ask, and he keeps that to himself. Usually, the apprentices are announced in June, and if one has no alternative plans by then, the chance of finding a company position is almost nil.

The level D women do receive a great deal of attention regarding future plans. It seems very unlikely that a dancer would be totally crushed and looking for the razor blades when they find out that she/he is not destined to have a career at NYCB.

As far as ballet "exposure", since the vast majority of the advanced students come to SAB at some point in their mid to late teens, I would assume that most had some exposure to the classic story ballets, etc. either through prior training or with their families. The SAB kids are lucky to receive no-cost tickets to NYCB, and this would by itself increase student attendance for the "home team". Many students are on scholarship and just don't have the money to pay for ballet tickets to attend ABT, etc.

Lastly, I would challenge the assertion that dancers in the corps at NYCB don't dance as frequently as dancers in smaller companies. There may exist fewer opportunities to dance as a soloist, but the rep is huge, and the corps in in fact very busy dancing most of the time.