2dds

This is a follow up to the points raised about Alicia Graf's career trajectory, history of injury and her personal estimation of her current capabilities... Here is the link that further discusses Alicia Graf and the path that lead her past ABT and NYC Ballet to eventually land at Alvin Ailey. This article does include mention of her injuries—to which L. Witchel refers, as well as Graf's efforts to initiate contact with ABT and NYC Ballet (speaks to what she felt her body was capable of doing). The informal nature of the NYC Ballet contact by Graf, an SAB alum, would seem consistent with the lack of regular formal company auditions as most of the NYC dancers are drawn from SAB ranks...or already established at other companies (especially non-US companies). http://www.nytimes.com/2005/12/22/arts/dan...=rssnyt&emc=rss I don't know if this article answers questions or raises them for posters on this thread, but I thought it was relevant and of interest. I hadn't yet tracked it down when I posted previously, and didn't want to engage in hearsay. I also tracked down an article on her brief stint with Complexions which also suggests that Graf felt she still had the ability to perform in a ballet (classical or contemporary) setting. http://www.dancemagazine.com/dance_magazin...01da07853e167b4 Please note Graf's own reluctance to read too much into her lack of success in finding a spot with ABT or NYC. She mentions how tough the current job climate is for all dancers, as well as the abundance of talented black dancers previously working at Dance Theatre of Harlem. Although this post may still appear slightly off topic to some, I guess (since there has been no follow up in the ongoing discussion on this thread), IMHO it remains relevant to the selection and marketing of "stars." On the surface at least, this would seem to be another comparable case of a pre- or ready made star (like beck hen's observation about Vishneva being originally created as a "star" by the Kirov. In the case of Graf, the subsequent career and marketing of this star has worked out a little, shall we say...differently. To those who find this a distraction/break in the ongoing discussion—no worries. I won't pursue this any further if there is no subsequent interest or follow-up.

This is probably (moderators please move as appropriate) but is also a direct response to On Pointe in post #5 on this topic Without speaking directly to other political issues that might influence casting, hiring, and promotion of individual dancers, I think On Pointe asks an interesting question. Alicia Graf's style and physical attributes are so obviously balletic (check out her leg line on the December cover of Dance Magazine), why did she wind up in a modern company after Dance Theatre of Harlem went dark... There is, of course, the question of Graf's height, but at least one observer thought that she looked similarly lovely on pointe when moving across the floor together with Maria Korowski in class at Steps in NYC... Here's an example of a ready made star (Graf's status was established at Dance Theatre of Harlem) without a ballet company home... Does this speak directly to On Pointe's other observation about companies reluctant to promote (or in this case maybe hire) particular dancers in the interests of company cohesion? Just an observation here. I honestly don't know the answer to On Point's question, but I had wondered the same thing myself. Maybe Graf had no interest in NYC or ABT. Do note, however, her brief, very brief, association with Complexions ballet company. Idle speculation and food for thought.

I think winky has some points here. I have noticed the general resistance to ballets being relevant as if this necessarily diminishes their artistic value. I don't fully understand this or why classical ballet is not able to accomodate (maybe in the contemporary wing) other and new types of content. Wasn't there a time when the classics we treasure and recreate were more relevant than they appear now? In context they must have seemed more contemporary. Why is it not okay to discover and mount the equivalents of these classics in ways relevant to this century as former ballets were relevant to those centuries? If not, we are condemned to risk forever appearing to be an inaccessible effete pursuit to outsiders, while we preach endlessly and vociferously to the choir... Doesn't the very unique technique of ballet count in terms of distinctiveness/uniqueness? Must this technique be deployed only in such narrowly circumscribed venues? When displayed alongside the classics, if the new stuff is inferior, can it not eventually evolve into relevant and sophisticated offerings as well??? The politics/pragmatics of high and low culture are the subject of much enlightening discussions by scholars. I'd highly recommend historian Larry Levine's work on this topic for anyone wanting to read further.

I also think (as many have mentioned all throughout this post), the transitions, the spaces, the inbetweens, this is often the location of special artistry, inspiring musicality, magic, the rare things that come into full bloom with the maturity of a trained dancer after many years of technical training. The visual artists refer to something analagous, I believe when they speak of negative space. Significantly though, the sensibility that inspires how the artist handles these "inbetweens" is often innate and recognizable to the trained eye even in the very youngest dancers. I also find the nature of transitions to be especially important in choreography--maybe more so than in dancing. This one of the most valuable pieces of advice--to pay attention to the transitions--that my dk got as a fledgling choreographer. This may be another piece of bart's puzzle...

I must start with a disclaimer because I am no expert, but IMHO here are my 2 cents... I think dancers differ as Helene states. Some like to "just go" and only count when forced to by the choreography, or sometimes the combination of the choreography and the music. Often this more demandong choreography is subtley (buy beautifully) violating certain conventional rules and or expectations. This demands a more active concentration than moves that are more predictable. Extensive rehearsal or familiarity with the particular style makes even these more demanding ones a bit more predictable and more easily danceable. Sometimes different parts of the choreography (for ex. the counts and moves for porte de bras when combined with the moves for the footwork) work together in unexpected and potentially confusing ways that also make it necessary to keep counts very clear. Some dancers seem to be more comfortable with counts all the time. I'm less familiar with this, both my dancers being the "just go" kind, but thinking about the mathematical nature of music, it's easy to see the appeal of the counts for performers with this sensibility. There are so many different ways of inhabiting the music, as well as so many different places to go in the music beyond just "the beat." I have also heard dancers in many different styles--not only ballet-- (and many moons ago, I myself remember) feeling/expressing/interpreting the different nuances of the music (polyrythms, opposing melodies, volume dynamics, themes played by different instruments, etc.) in different parts of the body. I think it is possible to move the feet to one theme, use the back/spine/head and shoulders to another, while working the arms through the fingers and invoking yet another aspect of the sound. It's almost as if the music is beating with /residing in / inspiring the physical response with or without actual explicit mental counting. I hope this isn't just hearsay (or ancient history) since much is based on observation. Does any of this begin to speak to your question bart?

Chance to Dance looks great in every way. It is meeting general needs as well as having a certain percentage of dancers coming out of the other end. There are lessons to be learned there for sure. As usual, the devil is in the details, and as usual Helene helps us get a grasp of the finer points. The pathway from school to company is a very specialized one tailored to the individual context. The pathways remain much murkier for far longer in the US it seems. I wonder specifically how Helene or others would see this translating into the workings of such outreach programs in the US. I'm thinking here of, for ex., similarities and differences between PNB's Dance Chance and the Royal's Chance to Dance... I was also happy to see bart's thoughtful recommendations on the maturity and goodwill needed on both or maybe all sides. It's necessary if we are to tackle inclusion problems head on. I too hope we are up to the task. The number of explicit actions taken in the example of Arthur Mitchell's case (in the link given at the end of Leonid's post) is typical of the 70s style activism that created real change leading to a career and ultimately a company for Mr. Mitchell. Like bart, I think a lot of well intentioned programs unfortunately had undesirable and unintended consequences. I also think sometimes 'diversity training' was a response to potential legal threats that may never have been more than lip service to begin with. This also accounts for a certain percentage of the failures. That's why with guidance and goodwill, insider experts can do as much or more than outside trainers to advance the atmosphere from within. We can learn from some of the mistakes of the past as well. Obviously this will play itself out a little differently in the 21st Century than in the 70s, 80s, or 90s, but the essential ingredients in terms of attitude and willingness remain the same. We have already come up with numerous strategies, and I look forward to more examples to come.

For anyone (everyone probably! ) who gave up on my infernally long post just before this, here's the gist: I think it's great to talk to and consult with people of color already in the ballet world to get their expertise on inclusion issues. They may be shy to participate for a range of reasons (many explored in the longer post) and need encouragement. I have found the term "color blind" to be favored by people (usually majority, not minority) who want to be fair and judge on matters of talent, quality, etc. giving everyone full access and equal treatment. This term, however, frequently raises a red flag for people most often targeted by discriminatory practices. For them, often minorities, it sometimes seems to mean, don't bring up issues of race. Let's get past that. This miscommunication can lead to problems. I really do appreciate efforts to go to the source like Leonid's who CLEARLY does not intend to be dismissive or disrespectful of anyone. He is obviously wanting to be constructive. Yet I noticed that the author of the article praising Arthur Mitchell inadvertently and harshly criticizes him (as a youth) without intending to do so even in the process of celebrating his discovery of ballet and early training. It's just such a mine field, I was trying to warn against some pitfalls I have seen... I will try harder to be more short and sweet. You think I would have learned my lesson. Apologies all around, will redouble my efforts (but not my posts!) in future. Moving on to other issues I couldn't even get to in my previous endless post: ballet (and the arts in general) as a luxury and lack of exposure The expense of ballet is a hurdle that must be addressed as well as the relative unattractiveness of such a relatively modest income for so much up front investment of time and money. Benefits of ballet extend far beyond having a professional career and publicizing/promoting these benefits might impress the more practically minded working class or other families supporting more traditional career choices. Also even as a career, many semi professionals or recreational dancers derive many benefits while having another way of making money with ballet as an avocation. Adding that dancers performing in many other styles benefit from ballet might broaden appeal as well. This focuses on training, but may increase audiences as more train. Question how do people feel about some of the methods (relaxing male dress code, calling it dance rather than ballet, venue in the target neighborhood, etc.) Mitchell used to expand his appeal? How far is too far? I have also seen lack of information about the availability of scholarships and the scholarship process prevent some potential students from pursuing ballet. It's interesting to compare to state supported programs like the Swedish one and those described by other posters. Do these state supported programs share the idea of the arts as a luxury for the well heeled? Are performances similarly affordable? Regarding Dance Chance in Seattle, obviously a laudable and well thought out program. How many students go on to the third year and integration into PNB's regular school? Mandatory performing arts??? Seems tough in these times of restricted school bugdets, but the overall well documented educational (general benefits outside the studio and stage) benefits of arts education might be a selling point. Ballet fulfilling PE can work well. I have seen this used at a high school for the arts to meet state guidelines. Glad to hear about the success of Dreyfoos. "Stakeholders" (parents, teachers, administration, community members, etc.) are so desperate for results, publicizing these programs might generate funding. One way to go would be to piggyback on initiatives coming out of ed schools and/or gifted and talented program funding. I love the idea of sharing ideas and strategies. Bravo North Carolina Dance Theatre and Jean-Pierre Bonnefoux, as well as sharing the many local initiatives at the grassroots level. Another technique I have seen to increase audiences and access beyond the usual are mixed bills where several companies present at the same time and place. In the context of conferences as venues for sharing strategies, I seem to recall there was a conference last summer in the UK with the lack of representation in ballet as a theme. Anyone else remember this or know about it? Ditto a Canadian conference on inclusion in dance (performers and content), I think this past winter in Toronto. Sorry to be so sketchy, but I didn't record these when I ran across them. If no one attended either one, I'll try to do more research tracking these down. Still a long post--hopefully sweeter and a little shorter. :blush:

Back online and happy to see how thoughtfully this thread is developing. This topic is a difficult and challenging one even with a degree of consensus and determination (the necessart first steps). I am a bit embarassed that I did not put even more time into my early suggestions, but I'm glad they are of some use as they stand. I tried to recall stray thoughts and conversations occurring over a considerable period oof time with a range of people concerned about ballet and this issuet. Since it was informal, I cannot quantjfy how many people or when—another reason my hat is off to Leonid and others who have expressed a desire to talk to friends and colleagues about this. I applaud Leonid's work especially the impulse to go to the source. I do have a couple of comments/supplements on seeking such opinions. First: there are some real contrasts between the UK and US. In the Americas generally we have societies composed primarily of immigrants and this affects the sense of citizenship, ownership, entitlement, and access. Where immigrants are a minority and also of a different ethnic/racial group, things may play out a little differently. This would be relevant to a do your own thying attitude, as well as self-exclusion vs being denied access. Second: there is another constituency to be approached, namely the once and future Dunhams and Primusses (that spelling looks awful, please excuse). I think I understand and sympathize with the desire to have Stein's just dancers, and Dunham and Primus are both quintessentially simply American as Leonid so accurately states. However, these leaders own characterizations of themselves cannot be so quickly labled as "personal privilege." It is important that these artists, especially Dunham, saw themselves as pioneers, activists, and explicitly invoked the racial aspects of their identity. However, much we may wish this were a non issue, we are not there yet, and we risk being dismissive and disrespectful when we ignore this inconvenient and uncomfortable aspect of these important figures public personas. Of course, it is important to recognize the heterogeneity of these diverse groups who often share little more than the discrimination itself. It is equally important to acknowlege activists who want to raise consciousness not necessarily to create divisions, but in this case to use racial awareness to address all the subtle and insidious ways this divide affects us. When we jump to be color blind while some dancers daily lives both in and outside ballet are still sharply circumscribed by race and ethnicity, we may inadvertently mute the testimony and ignore the experience of dancers who feel race/ethnicity is an important part of their personal identity and of how they are treated in the ballet world. This uncertain reception is one of the reasons the future Dunhams may hesitate to speak up annd risk appearing oversensitive or like whiners. Ironically the wish to get beyond the current divisive stage can only be achieved by acknowleging it, and working through it. There are so very many reasons for the underrepresentation of diversity in ballet at all levels. Some of these reasons also discourage dancers from speaking out on how race and ethnicity may be affecting them. I want to hear more from the precious few people of color already in the game, and this discussion must be as open to opinions that race shouldn't matter as it is to the fact that some may feel that it does. As I keep saying, our different experiences produce different perspectives. For an example, look at the interview with Arthur Mitchell and note #1 how his realistic and typically held (this apparent cynicism would likely have been viewed as healthy and realistic by most members of the black Harlem community of his birth) belief that he would be discriminated against because of not being "blonde and blue-eyed," is described as 'defeatist'. Harsh and possibly condescending judgment of a youngster. #2 Mitchell only escapes this crippling personal 'misperception' after being discovered, rescued and rehabilitated by his guidance counselor. Additional activist interventions on Mitchell's behalf that explicitly addressed the issues of race and discrimination in dance ultimately led to him breaking barriers in ballet that may still remain unbroken for ballerinas (black males seem to benefit more from Mitchell's pioneering). It helps that Mitchell was so tremendously talented, but that was not sufficient without certain interventions that facilitated his successes. Like Dunhan and Primus, Mitchell was pretty forthright in how he addressed race, opportunity, and ballet. It inspired the founding of his school and company. Did the continued presence of these issues lead to the current status of Dance Theatre of Harlem? We can only wonder and hope... Thus I suggest we look not only to those who do not live and breathe ballet (and this would be most folks regardless of identity), but also to those unlikely (typically underrepresented) few who do live and breathe it. What are their suggestions for increasing inclusiveness? Let's take care not only to avoid muting these voices, let's empower them and listen to their own characterizations as both underrepresented and as ballet insiders. This is my delayed response to Bart's query on the original thread about what I meant in tterms of taking people on their own terms. This won't work if we second guess it and ask folks to leave their issues at the door. It will work if we channel discussion into specific avenues like: what could make it easier or more comfortable? What can be done to increase inclusiiveness?, etc. rather than asking first for proof of didscrimination or suggesting it's all in your head. This is tricky work, but we already have a few experts among us, probably (and understandably) reluctant and skittish, but exxperts nonetheless.

Luckily I found a moment to go online and try to undo some of the damage done with my last posts. First apologies all around for getting carried away. I was overexcited to think so many ballet lovers were interested in making concrete changes. I got completely carried away, and apparently permanently alienated many who might have taken me more seriously if I had not been so heavy handed. I'm very sorry to lose your support and attention. Please know that I was just in a headlong rush to get to some real ways to make ballet more inclusive, and tried to share some advice I had about how to advance the discussion. I apologize for stepping on toes here, and I have absolutely not been annointed, but (as all can see in his posts) got some positive feedback from bart recognizing the time and care I tried to put in my posts. I felt encouraged and hopeful and apparently became overbearring in the process. I can see now that my comments to Mr. Stevens were especially out of place in this regard and apologize profusely in advance of him feeling free to properly call me to task on these violations. Diversity training is very corporate, or can be, but can also be helpful I feel in any workplace --even an arts based one (it can also be a complete waste of time or worse). My orientation is actually not corporate, however, but academic thus the lecturing style--a bad but sometimes necessary habit in higher education. I was trying to avoid this undesirable result (wasting time, or worse just infuriating everyone) by assuming/forcing a consensus that doesn't exist; it really is an occupational hazard and not personal. It's what makes academics so insufferable--even to each other. Please forgive and forget. I am properly reminded that this is not a thread about how to fix it, but rather exploring the issue, and I was out of line. I was not trying to oppress anyone, but must admit my priority is how to make a change, not exploring feelings for their own sake. I got impatient and apparently rude, and apologize all around for dictating, finger pointing and any other violations. I am not a special case. I was simply trying to move ahead with a project that was only in my own head and went in a wrong direction. It was not my intent to do anything personal toward anyone. My only concern was to further a constructive discussion oriented toward creating a friendlier place for a more diverse group--all still dedicated to ballet. I would happily be banished to a "fix it" thread if a modertor could spin one off. I would love to work with like minded Ballet Talk people to figure out how to make ballet a more inclusive place for everyone. Again so, so sorry for the confusion and the hard feelings. I think I understand how sensitive and hard this can be. I will be big enough to forgive, too, and will try to take comments in the spirit in which they were intended, just as I have asked others to do for me. Looking forward to a a thread more focused on how to get more inclusion. I would like to thank a moderator for spinning this off in your official capacity, since I can only start a fresh thread in my member (and a terribly new one at that) capacity. I would also continue to have limited and appropriate input on this original topic. Thanks everyone for your respect, patience, and honesty. PS If soldiers and willis can be on pointe, I think protestors and law enforcement can be too I also think for the historical classical ballets creative casting is all I would ask.

I feel like this thread is one of the liveliest I've ever seen and so far with some detours one of the most civil on this topic. I also apologize for not weighing in sooner with responses and clarifications to points I personally raised, but a thread that generates over 100 posts (allowing for at least a few more today) between July 23 and July 28 is a bit daunting. Monitoring this is a fulltime job, literally. I have tried to take the considerable time to review this thread and pull out a few themes, and with the encouragement of one of the moderators weigh in on a few issues. As I said previously, I am not a moderator, but I do have decades of personal thought and formal training on these diversity/identity matters that I would like to share. I offer this, not to step on anyone's toes, but respectfully as an effort to be part of the solution, not the problem, as we used to say in the 60s. We must exercise great care in this discussion. As a veteran of many of these encounters over the years, I offered my three initial points of agreement in the first post. I am not requiring anyone to believe these, but would ask that anyone who seriously and constructively wants to address these issues IN THIS DISCUSSION, agree to these three. If anyone disagrees that's fine, but frankly, it needs to be handled outside this thread because it impedes discussion. This is not a judgment about anyone personally but if we cannot get this agreement, we can't move forward. I am a relatively new member and can't seem to master the quote function so I have pasted in the section of my earliest post to which I refer: I think a good starting point helps. Just as men are not ideally positioned to fully appreciate the ins and outs of gender discrimination, our lived experience definitively differs and determines our racially defined realities in this country--with our American history it cannot be otherwise. As mentioned in other posts, some have the priviledge (luxury?) of not having to think about race, while others must confront at least the possibility of it affecting their lives every day as soon as they leave their front door (maybe even before). Not only are these viewpoints radically different, they do not confer equal expertise in discussing this issue. We must first get past this to have a productive discussion. Then we have to move forward as people of goodwill to explore productive creative remedies to achieve a better climate specifically for ballet. I think it would be good to first agree that we want ballet to be more inclusive, more representative, but I'm not sure everyone agrees this is desirable. I do think this needs to be an acknowledged desirable goal. Whether we think there is discrimination or not, can we agree there is underrepresentation? If we can make this a given, can we procede to identify greater diversity and inclusiveness as a valuable change we would like to see in ballet--be it audiences, administrators, performers, students, teachers, choreographers, critics, or patrons? I think agreement on these points: #1-the extreme subjectivity of our viewpoints and the lack of equivalence and level of expertise of these viewpoints #2-the underrepresentation of people of of color--noticeably and demonstrably non-white--throughout all levels of the ballet scene #3-the desirability of having ballet in the future thriving while evolving in a more inclusive and racially diverse world would go far toward furthering discussion. I said in my second post, later that same day, I felt the substance of my first July26 post had been somewhat ignored. Frankly, I still feel these points are worth repeating and I should say why. Some have said explicitly or implied that inclusiveness is not a high priority for them in ballet. Issues of race and discrimination are not paramount in their daily lives, and the differences between terms like colored people, or people of color, don't really matter to them personally. Many have questioned whether there is anything actually going on in the ballet world that is really exclusionary. These represent personal points of view that I must respect as I must respect all persons. However, if we cannot agree that people of color are underrepresented and that is desirable to remedy this, such viewpoints will serve ONLY to derail any efforts to create solutions to this thorny problem. I respectfully submit that those who do not believe there is a problem, or who do not believe this is a priority worth dedicating time and energy to can enter this discussion only to prevent change. I don't think that behavior is respectful, respectable, appropriate , or welcome. I would politely request that going forward, people who don't think there is a problem, refrain from offering suggestions and solutions (non-solutions) to other members who are sincerely trying to work toward remedies. Of course, it's fine to believe we are wasting our time on this thread, but if this is to become a problem solving exercise, try to refrain from shutting others down with the continual questioning of the reality with which we must deal. And I thank people in advance for at least taking seriously the points I have just made. I think agreeing to my initial points #2 and #3 is crucial, but even more vital and more difficult is agreeing to point #1. We live different lives in this country based on our own visible racial and ethnic identities. Our experiences and opinions are distinct. Some cannot choose to ignore these issues. They do not have that luxury (rephrased from the earlier post of mine). Those who can choose whether or not to confront these issues must acknowledge that having a choice on this is already a form of priviledge. We never like to admit to these kinds of difference in the US, but in this case, I believe it is less divisive to admit that the potential targets of discrimination are in a different position than everyone else. That is what I was suggesting with my gender example. Do men and women have equal expertise on what it is like to have a life circumscribed by gender discrimination? Absolutely not. Please note, here I said expertise. Men must defer to women on this issue; they--the women--must be acknowledged as the experts, the authorities. All opinions are not equally valid. The same is true here on issues of race and discrimination. In our eagerness to reassure ourselves, we bring out examples of the rare exceptional cases of people who have managed to surmount barriers even as we ignore these folks' own descriptions of real injuries, pain and discrimination that they suffered. Is it any wonder that dancers of color are reluctant to attest to problems in their personal experience in such a climate? Given the daunting odds against anyone having a successful career in ballet, it becomes difficult, as several posters have pointed out, very difficult to sort out what factor race may play in hiring, firing, and promotions. Difficult, but not impossible, and here I would like to make a few more observations/suggestions. We appear to be going round and round about racism, who is, who isn't, if ballet is or ballet isn't. These questions are unproductive if they are about subjective feelings whether it is guilt or outrage. The answers require too much soul searching, confession, and angst. Moreover, the answers are often colored by wishful thinking--not me, not here, not anymore, etc. Questions of intent and well meaning-ness are similarly fraught. This also gets back to questions of authority and our own subjective realities, but more about this later. For the time being, and especially in the instance of accusing people or institutions of practicing racism, let's avoid feelings and stick with practices. As one poster (defjef, I think) defines racism it is based on institutionalized exclusionary practices--this is not about feelings. Also practices are things we can make a commitment to change, and our inner hearts and souls remain, rightfully our own private property. I was careful to speak of underrepresentation without trying to discover intent. Here we get into the thorny territory of evidence. This thread begins with the simple observation, made by Defjef, that the ballet world lacks diversity. Carbro as a knowlegeable moderator lists a collection of related threads that are part of the history of this board. Defjef introoduces the term racism, and Mel Johnson wearing two hats it seems, both a professional historian's hat and his official Ballet Talk status--introduces the counter term anti-racism and working toward solutions. Herman Stevens finds the whole topic "depressing" and feels black dancers are surely welcome everywhere. As an example he mentions the one would think predictably lily white Royal Ballet and its perennial favorite Carlos Acosta (identifiably of African descent). Mr Stevens points out black dancers are crowd pleasers, what company wouldn't want them!?! Many posts early on in this thread also chastize Defjef for one thing or another (lucky he is self-described as thick skinned on this issue), and several moderators (Alexandra, Helene, Leigh W.) weigh in on proper conduct, proper subject matter, and gound rules to procede. There are also pointed recommendations from Major Mel and Bart to stay productive/constructive (see posts 18-31) I'm glad this thread survived that difficult time, but I suggest, some of the problems that lead to that shakey point have not yet been addressed. I apologize in advance to Herman Stevens, but I am curious about why you weigh in on a topic that you seem to believe is not actually a problem? If you find it irrelevant that's okay, but once we have established underrepresentation and are trying to find the cause and the remedy, what does it serve to suggest everyone everywhere wants to hire crowd pleasing black dancers? I am not trying to point the finger, I am simply mystified by your intent. You are apparently similarly confused by my discourse and noted the following: Herman Stevens is alarmed at and questions my definition of the term "we." I am defining it as it is explicitly laid out on this board--ballet lovers and supporters! Why does this stated definition of our community here on line get "scarey" and questionnable when we hit this particular discussion? My euphemism of "purist" may have been the problem. I said we might lose a few "purists," and seemed not to care. I meant someone so committed to preserving the exclusionary practices incorporated in the history of ballet that this commitment would preclude participating in the reimagined future of ballet if ballet becomes more inclusive. I hope this is more clear. I did not want to be inflammatory and label anyone as racist or bigotted, but in this discussion , that might have been less confusing. I hope we are more clear now about "we" here at Ballet Talk and can procede with more clarity. As we seek creative ways to make ballet more inclusive, many have been concerned that this will lower the technical level of dance, dumb down the rep, or transform the art into something we can no longer recognize. Partly, I think this reflects how narrow the historical context of ballet has been and our inability to imagine ballet completely divorced from this very particular cultural and historical context. I hope it does not represent a sincere belief that including dancers who are not 'the usual suspects' a la Casablanca means the art form will necessarily be diminished if we include more diversity in the dancers. Let's explore this a bit. Is this fear based on the worry that judgments will be made based on something other than excellence? If so, why don't we worry like this when discussing ways of including more male dancers even though we willingly admit they are rarer than female ballet dancers and that we need extra incentives along the way to ensure their presence? Why don't we worry in this FUNCTIONALLY equivalent situation? Why aren't people objecting to extra efforts (scholarships for example to males at every technical level)? Why, because we have decided that men are essential to ballet. We have to have partners, don't we? If we need to make extra efforts to bring this about, we bite the bullet and do so, because it is a desirable goal. Even as we speculate about why (is it the lack of males entering? is the studio climate making it difficult for males to remain in training? is it outside peer pressure?, etc.), we want the men here , so we go about doing whatever it takes to bring it about. Even before we have the answers to the why questions, we make efforts to find solutions, trusting that the proof is in the pudding. We do so tirelessly and consistently over time until we see results. We share strategies for attracting and retaining males, and we judge success on results. I would suggest, if we decide we want to make ballet more inclusive, we have many practices already in place that could at least give hints as to how to make changes. We need be in no more fear that including many black, Asian and Pacific Islander, native American, or latin dancers is more likely to presage the death of ballet as we know it, than we fear similar efforts to recruit and RETAIN males. Technical excellence is--must be--a given. If we want to be inclusive and we do not still believe certain groups are genetically and biologically unsuited to dance ballet, we can use the example of including men with no worries about threats to the art form. Dancers can be equally valued without being identical, and we need to fearlessly do whatever possible to attract and welcome diversity throughout the ballet world. Another example that occurred to me while reading this thread. Wouldn't it be interesting to see a contemporary story ballet crafted around MLKing's "Letters from a Birmingham Jail?" Imagine a corps of diverse dancers being hosed down by a police department of equally diverse dancers while the Rev. MLK crafts his responses. It could include variations enacting various sentiments expressed in the "Letters." How wonderful that could be if properly handled. Ballet technique is substantially the same in Paris, France and Paris, Texas, imagine harnessing that beauty to contemporary themes. (Before anyone jumps on me for keeping politics out of ballet, look back at the threads on ballet's history, think about the role of the military, nobility and court, their close relationship to ballet, and how politics created these venerable institutions...) Would this necessarily be a dumbed down rep? Would this fill seats like other story ballets? If you prefer abstract ballet, think about a ballet devoted to the "jazz aesthetic" (much scholarship on a musical genre many musicologists have called 'American classical music'). This would address the stylistic innovations introduced in jazz with or without the necessity of an explicitly race based historical context. Scholars have looked at the similarities and contrasts among what have been described as two types of classical or symphonic music. These abstract artistic concepts could be embodied and explored through classical dance. If we can find the will, we can find the imagination and ballet is already sublime--we have the tool. This reply is already far too long. I have some more important points on: terminology, listening respectfully to the assertions of authorities (the targets of discrimination) when they speak on underrepresentation and its causes, staying concrete--for ex why not follow up on the questions about Dance Theatre of Harlem by doing simple searches like where these dancers have landed and if they were hired at comparable levels, looking at how Raven Wilkinson's story has been a lightning rod for so many issues in this thread, empirical evidence, how neutral or standard is even a simple dress code if, for ex., hair doesn't form naturally into a smooth bun?, etc., creating a welcoming (this does NOT mean colorblind) climate that promotes equal access and inclusion, bart's request for more on meeting people on their own terms, the difficulty of ANYONE having a ballet career and how race could be teased out of what is already a long shot proposition. but this is already too long (length, time to read, time to write). I may not have internet access for a few days, so in my absence, I hope some things in this long post generate light more than heat and move us forward. Please understand if there are no responses from me for a bit. I promise to check back on or before August 1st. Thanks so much to everyone who has taken the time and made effort to work through this difficult but vital subject

A few quick thoughts. Bart, I agree that audiences are ahead of the curve on this one. More innovative casting and rep should have a chance to get out without being pre-empted based on speculation. Like you, I think the audiences are there. For every purist we might lose, there is also a chance to pick up a few new fans. Papeetepatrick, thanks for your extensive comments on the historical context of ballet as well as a concrete example (a frightening and ultimately tragic one at that) of racism's damaging effect on ballet during Ms. Wilkinsons's career. I think I get the comment about sounding like a manifesto, but I think the point remains how to move from A to B. This gets to Bart's question about how exactly do we make inclusion a priority. At every step of the way. Arts and dance organizations can partner and hold joint events for ex. ballet folklorico programs and classical ballet programs could be coordinated in terms of dates and times to address the same audience and encourage exchange:--just off the top of my head; ditto ballet and liturgical (often performed by black churches); piggybacking on ethnic dance festivals; etc. making sure outreach and entry level dancers from diverse backgrounds have opportunities to be retained and advanced--could this be facilitated by scholarship, workstudy, carpooling, personal contact (phone calls?) and encouragement, various forms ofmentoring and extra effort--paralleling the types of things done to attract and hold the rare (much less rare actually) but valued male dancers approaching local ethnic organizations as sources of expertise to locate patrons, students, teachers, etc. who might want to collaborate replicating successful efforts from other communities for. ex. the Colorado Ballet and the Cleo Parker Robinson Dance Ensemble in Denver Valuing and paying for consultants or other experts to facilitate this just like we would hire someone to brainstorm on fundraising, development, grant writing, recruitment, etc. Include such questions on audience surveys Exploit all local connections with broker/facilitator type individuals Once the prorities are established there is no limit to the ways committed individuals can be mobilized new choreographic initiatives for contemporaryor even new classical rep, etc. Be careful though when trying to get too much expertise for free when organizations would show their commitment to other initiatives by hiring and fully funding these initiatives while these diversity efforts simply rely on the goodwill of often already overburdened community members Growth will have to come from within and without ballet to make sure we are breaking out of old habits I should also clarify my analogy about monotone and steady drone was a purely figure of speech to free up ideas about uniformity and corps de ballet, the "look" of certain dancers and appropriateness of certain groups in certain settings. I was suggesting these women who are not actually birds or swans, but fantasies--could easily be unified in their movement not necessarily in their skintone--only in this way did I suggest a monotone drone in ballet. This speaks to the notion that a stereotypical look would describe a particular character, Odile, for ex. in a way that would preclude certain dancers. Only that The business about including dancers on their own terms was only referring to the idea that dancers should not be forced to appear as sanitized individuals with no room to be a black or Asian dancer--this could be something as simple as making holidays appropriate to different religious and cultural heritages or understanding or even anticipating that a blackface tradition like that in a recent performance imported from Russia might be unwelcome. Basically just a sensitivity that doesn't celebrate colorblindness. This works better for those who do not see their ethnic and racial heritage as essential, less well for those who embrace such a heritage. Some of this is workplace sensitivity, creative casting, expanding rep--again multi pronged. The key is to realize color blind is not a goal for a person who is happy an comfortable with an identification that includes pride in heritage. Sorry, this is very slap dash and reflective of the hour, but hopefully begins to address some of the queries Also Defjef, I appreciate your reality check this is about practices not just feelings or imagined slights "institutionalized exclusionary practices" is a perfect description. I caution everyone (myself included) to be wary of acecdotes about a subject on which there are many real and concrete examples as well as expertise. The issue of Dance magazine dedicated to this topic has a lot of wisdom and examples. Plus this can become an aspect of many current discussions: for example how can we understand (causes, remedies, consequences) the current hiatus of Dance Theatre of Harlem and what has been the fate of its company members? As we come up again on the reality of underrepresentation and actual discrimination we need to pretend we are all people of color who necessarily have not got the luxury of ignoring this issue, it is a vital and daily reality from which there is no escape. This is not about anything other than leveling the playing field and making sure that everyone who wants to (whether they know it or not) or needs to have ballet in their life has an equal opportunity to do so.

I actually would be quite content to see anyone doing any form of dance, if that dancer had the artistry, technique and desire to render authentically powerful performances that would appeal to audiences who had the expertise to evaluate "authenticity" as THEY (knowledgeable insiders) would define it. For me art is symbolic creation not a simple simulation or representation. The essence of it is this essential creativity and for me it inspires not through the literal representation, but something more sublime and transcendant. I appreciate the numerous acknowledgements of my post this morning, but since I see less acknowledgement of the spirit of my suggestions than I would have hoped, I will try to clarify my position a bit. First of all, as I suspected several posters have suggested inclusiveness and diversity as we have defined it here, are actually not high priorities. While this is not surprising, I do find it disappointing as I know the status quo will never change without a clear and conscious commitment to change. Ballet will not become more inclusive unless a strong firm commitment is made, and a high priority associated with this desirable change. I also do not want to get bogged down in terminology such as the term "people of color". Many contemporary activists find this a useful way to mobilize coalitions of nonwhite people committed to change, and this is good enough for me. I must confess that my top priority in selecting this term was not how it would affect "caucasians" who might suffer from a felling of colorlessness or color inferiority. The disadvantages for the white population should not trump our concern for the actual targets of discrimination, and a term like "non" white has obvious problems. For that matter, many also object to the term "Caucasian" as well. Contention over terms is endemic and paralyzing. I have learned to try to call people what they choose to call themselves while remaining as respecful and well informed as possible. Most important, however, must be the substance of the dialog and an attitude of respect, not some formalistic and doomed effort to please everyone all the time. While we are on terminology, I know many who find the term "color blind" to be an undesirable term, since #1- our society does not really operate in this way anyway. #2-Often this means, let's ignore real or potential issues of discrimination and prejudice. Drop these issues at the door please; that's excess baggage, and stop being so oversensitive. Again, this usually proves counter productive in changing business as usual. Mostly it's effective at stymying agents of change. Also on my second point in my initial post--the reality of underrepresentation, Let's face it, even when we trot out Arthur Mitchell, Carlos Acosta, Aesha Ashe, Raven Wilkinson, Jerry Long, Eric Underwood, and Misty Copeland, etc. and the list goes on--or does it? Even once we review these counter examples, if we are honest we must admit, we need only our two hands to tick off the number of prominent figures like this in the ballet world, and many of these figures themselves asserted that they had to fight against prejudice to achieve what they did. Again, we do not need absolute and total exclusion to reveal a serious underrepresentation. Demanding this totality, focusing on these exceptional cases muddies what is actually a pretty clear picture, and again works to impede change. There was and continues to be a problem in ballet that reflects and possibly amplifies problems found throughout American society. We need to take people on their own terms. If a dancer is proud to be a member of a group with a heritage of resilience and triumph over discrimination, we need not insist on color blindness or treating them as individuals. Not everyone wants to be taken simply as an individual out of the context of a social community. Unless difference is used to stigmatize or divide people by rank, there should be no impediment to asserting an ethnic, racial, or cultural identity. I may not insist that the price of admission to the world of ballet is that a person appear as an individual stripped of their social identity because that identity makes me uncomfortable. Difference can be embraced and celebrated. It is not bad by definition. If we mobilize all these different bodies and identiies in concert in stylistically coherent ways, we have the potential to achieve a beauty beyond the bounds of the homogeneous or predictable. Unusual and pleasing harmonies may be more desirable than a one note monotone, however comforting than steady drone may have seemed in the past. I call again for a commitment to a more enlightened ballet future with room for many shades and sensibilities, rededicated to a creative reimagining of the art and a fond farewell to the stifling and exclusionary history of business as usual. At this juncture I am not ready to concede ballet will always be racially biased. Ballet is what we make it. If enough of us commit ourselves to change it will happen. Sadly, if enough of us either give up hope, work wittingly or unwittingly to impede change, or worse yet, fight to maintain a system that injures, excludes, and punishes people based on their identity and heritage--in that case, we can and will perpetuate these negative aspects of the art far into the forseable future. The choice really is ours.

Keeping weird hours and I discovered this thread on a topic of general interest to me, and specific ballet interest as well. Just a few observations: for several reasons, these issues seem to be of perennial interest to a lot of people, but also very volatile and produce some of the most questionable behavior requiring moderator intervention. I believe this occurs and reoccurs not only because these are "hot" topics, but also because race does still matter in the U.S. and the nature of our racial divide is such that our experiences are very different depending on where we are positioned in respect to this divide, so this topic instantly becomes very personal, very subjective. This seems to lead too frequently to the violation of certain forum rules, and also to a fundamental disagreement about the sheer existence of racism, as well as the degree of racism, as well as what constitutes evidence of it in our daily lives. I think a good starting point helps. Just as men are not ideally positioned to fully appreciate the ins and outs of gender discrimination, our lived experience definitively differs and determines our racially defined realities in this country--with our American history it cannot be otherwise. As mentioned in other posts, some have the priviledge (luxury?) of not having to think about race, while others must confront at least the possibility of it affecting their lives every day as soon as they leave their front door (maybe even before). Not only are these viewpoints radically different, they do not confer equal expertise in discussing this issue. We must first get past this to have a productive discussion. Then we have to move forward as people of goodwill to explore productive creative remedies to achieve a better climate specifically for ballet. I think it would be good to first agree that we want ballet to be more inclusive, more representative, but I'm not sure everyone agrees this is desirable. I do think this needs to be an acknowledged desirable goal. Whether we think there is discrimination or not, can we agree there is underrepresentation? If we can make this a given, can we procede to identify greater diversity and inclusiveness as a valuable change we would like to see in ballet--be it audiences, administrators, performers, students, teachers, choreographers, critics, or patrons? I think agreement on these points: #1-the extreme subjectivity of our viewpoints and the lack of equivalence and level of expertise of these viewpoints #2-the underrepresentation of people of of color--noticeably and demonstrably non-white--throughout all levels of the ballet scene #3-the desirability of having ballet in the future thriving while evolving in a more inclusive and racially diverse world would go far toward furthering discussion. I am not a moderator, so maybe I am in no position to even make these suggestions; I'm certainly in no position to enforce them (please note my very few posts) :blush: However, I have had some experience as a diversity trainer; and I have loved ballet for many years. I also have some academic interest and expertise on this as well. Moreover, I strive to be a constructive person of goodwill, and would like to see this discussion continue and lead to positive change. I wonder what others think? :

Glad to see this thread. I agree with the endangered label and welcome the Barnard initiative. I also agree that there has been backsliding and that given their overwhelming majority as dancers, women's representation on the leadership side is too modest. Thank you Alexandra for cutting through the appearances to the realities behind the numbers and the few exceptions. I respectfully disagree with Mr. Johnson's recommendation to be patient about the 21st century, and while no one admires Ms. Farrell more than I, I hope her, still relatively new company, will go on to achieve greater heights. Then it would become a much more powerful counter example. Also, despite the prominence of Alvin Ailey, it is a modern company, and on that side of the divide (as usual) things are not in quite as dismal a state as in ballet. I would be curious to see the corresponding info for successful leading female choreographers (including not just talent and desire, but level of funding/exposure) as I think this would be in many cases connected to leadership of companies down the road. Many male company leaders also have a life as choreographers. To the extent female choreographers find themselves underrepresented or disadvantaged, this may carry over into leadership deficits.

Interesting nuts and bolts discussion of the link between technique and magic during training. I think similar corrections (especially "stacking") happen with turns. As a parent I have watched lots of class and noted how students try to get from A to B. I also enjoy talking to so-called natural jumpers after class. They all say you just jump up and hold it there as long as you can. Note the "just"--a give away to the "natural" jumper. I think the same goes for the "natural" turners. As an observer I see dancers who steel themselves before jumps or turns with looks of determination, naked fear, concentration, etc. As well as some who jump (or turn) for joy with blazing smiles on their faces and looks of relief now that their favorite part of class has finally arrived. It is also very interesting to me to observe the choices dancers make in execution and phrasing as well as in the transitions. Dancers "feel" it differently, and execute their steps differently. Also important, dancers may be more or less consistent and responsive to corrections as Hans notes so pertinently. Ironically, some of the "naturals" are the hardest to correct. #1 their unadorned ability is often considerable and when attention more often goes to the squeaky wheel, the naturals are left with no or less attention. #2 their "natural" approach may disincline them to leave their comfort zone and make changes/corrections

In discussing the silence issue offline, one of my own dancers (who has also choreographed) offered the opinion that silences in the beginning, end, or placed at strategic points in a piece are like taking a breath and it opens up the piece in the sense of letting it breathe.

Yay Hans! I am going to recommend my dancers look at your very informative comments (especially since partnering--much of your post--is so hard to come by with so few boys available at so few schools for the training students). I also find rehhearsals very informative and enlightening. Thanks Defjef for your enthusiasm and the good questions.

It is interesting to me to see how the musicality, the technique, and this contradiction threads are all converging and trying to look at how the magic/illusion aspect of ballet is taught and executed. We are using analogies and every other technique at our disposal to explain a transformation that is probably somewhat beyond the ability of words to convey. Ballet demands so much of its pactitioners. I often comment to my dancing children, you must act without words, and sing without voices. Because their bodies (entire bodies) are their instrument, they have to train and condition like athletes. Unlike athletes they are also required to make it look effortless and easy, but not so matter of fact it becomes pedestrian. Does this happen in the head or in the heart or in the limbs? Currently my main interest in ballet is in the care and feeding of its practitioners. I was somewhat shocked to realize (actually during a performance one summer several years ago), that I was no longer raising children who danced, but rather dancers who were still children. Since my personal epiphany, I have taken this responsibility very seriously. From this perspective it seems to me an extraordinary number of things need to come together quite precisely to achieve even the most fleeting moments of success in ballet. Prominent among these things are persistence, faith, and passion cultivated in an atmosphere of hope and with a healthy dose of good luck and good fortune. The support and curiosity of balletomanes like defjef and others on this board reassures me that the community working so hard to produce dancers and dances can look forward to appreciative fans for sometime to come. Both my children have devoted a lot of sweat and tears to dance (primarily but not exclusively ballet) and hope for careers though they know the odds against them. Ballet even takes over their dreams. I remember how touched I was when I first heard about the dream pirouettes where the dreamer asceded and spun flawlessly for countless revolutions. Both my children have dancing dreams pretty regularly (although some are pretty ordinary and every once in awhile there are real nightmares!) It seems you must train, train, train, and strive in all ways: physical, mental, and spiritual to have a hope of doing what Defjef is trying to understand. The culture of excellence and dedication begun in the studio and perpetuated all the way to the stage are a totality that combine to generate what we are all so proud of. An elusive constellation of magic, and sweat; inspiration and perspiration, that on a good day lift us all up so high it is its own reward.

Let me add my thanks carbro and continue on with the more general technique discussion. I was getting dizzy and lost in all the turns right and left, although I agree that symmetry and assymetry are interesting elements of design (and choreography). One of the things I'd like to discuss more has to do with what are our priorities for technique (purely physical and mechanical) among dancers. I've seen technique favored over all else both in training and in performing. I often wonder how valid this is in either case. What do audiences want, and how do we train dancers to attend to what audiences want? Does it make a difference what is popular among audiences or is this pandering? What about selling tickets and remaining economically viable? How is pleasing audiences related to educating and increasing audiences? Do we rely primarily on patronage and ignore the often inadequate revenues generated by ticket sales? I have heard some in the ballet community (teachers, fans, dancers, critics, students) say--and I heartily agree--ballet is primarily illusion. Once we accept and embrace this IMHO we get to the magic of ballet. For ex., I know that people cannot actually fly, but one of my favorite things about ballet is that it produces vivid and convincing evidence that people really do soar elegantly, effortlessly, and regularly. Ballet dancers and their admirers need not succumb to or believe in gravity, and I enjoy being part of this liberated crowd! This particular illusion demands formidable technique, but in the end has less to do with technique than other things--artistry, presence, etc. I will happily continue to testify to the fact that people really can and do fly. I've seen it myself.

Helene, I enjoyed your thoughts on musicality and sinigng and playing and dancing (I am still a bit confused on how to use the quote function...sorry). Made me think too. I wonder what you and other members think about the increased dancing in silence that preceeds, punctuates, and follows some (usually contemporary) choreography. In addition, some modern/contemp pieces especially in modern dance, but creeping into ballet as well is choreographed to ambient sounds or seemingly unmusical "music." Maybe I'm going off track, but I am stumped by the even occasional but increasingly frequent estrangement I see between music and dance. How does musicality fare, and how much do we value and/or train for this as the parameters of what we call "music" expand in a post modern sensibility???

I am enjoying this discussion which seems to me to have two distinct and worthy subtopics. First, the potential split and/or relationship between technique and artistry. This has training and performance implications--both intriguing. Second, the implications of distinctive styles or techniques (there is a thread somewhere discussing the difference between a style and a technique, but I can't find it again) and how this might characterize ballet here in the US and abroad. I am learning a lot and enjoying others thoughts and expertise. Thanks for sharing.

I agree on the difficulty in defining "American" style, I was just trying to follow up on a distinction I detected in earlier postings making a contrast about the inclusion of artistry and other factors beyond the physical. My children's old studio was not pure Vagonova by any means, but the sensibility and most of the teachers were generally oriented toward Russian style. The director's most important affiliation was Ballet Russe (the American incarnation). Having said this, one of the most influential teachers was trained in China and at SAB. Another personal favorite of one of my children was a Cuban teacher. Most others were American trained; many were also alums of that studio who had professional careers.This was our family's earliest and longest affiliation, but both my kids have moved on many years ago. I promised myself when joining this board, not to go into too many details about my dancers who I also (of course) believe to be intelligent, thoughtful, talented, and sensitive. They are still seeking the best dance fit and/or personal path for themselves. When this becomes more clear I will share more details, at this point, I'll just leave them their personal space. Thank you though for the compliments and support, and please forgive my reticence. Hopefully, I've shared enough relevant material to interpret my post. I think many kinds of kids are pursuing ballet these days (with the proviso that it is too expensive for many without some sort of subsidy--another contrast with much training abroad, I think). The commitment required begins to sort these guys out after around age twelve I've found, when it's harder to sustain tutu fever because so much sacrifice is involved. Nature/nurture???I don't know. This gets into questions of what is innately in a dancer or any artist and how much of their craft can be taught. This question is beyond me, but provides another important contrast with other training outside the US. My understanding is that access is more strictly limited in state-supported systems. I guess predictions about career potential rather than economic status more often limit the ability to receive elite training. Does this also have implications for the art of ballet as well as the patrons?

This discussion is very interesting to me as the terms "technique" and "good technique" seem to have different meanings to different people. I was especially happy to read the detailed way in which artistry or at least "prescriptions" for artistry are included in the higher levels of Vagonova technique. I never knew/fully understood this, but it does explain perfectly my and my dks'* fondness for Vagonova technique. I like to see artists making choices :cool2: , not technicians executing steps . The dks were taught the clean double trumps the funky triple rule early in their mostly Vagonova training. Could this also explain a distinction between American training (however this is being defined) and other styles? Maybe it even explains why Americans sometimes fail to make much impact in international competitions (Lausanne for example). Could it be part of the reason ballet does not have broader appeal/support among American audiences? Less artistry and more technical emphasis would make ballet more of an acquired taste and reduce its general appeal. That would be ironic if American training is producing artists less accessible to American audiences. All this explains why a dancer would have to be so well trained to be well enough informed to even understand how and why they have the responsibility to make choices artistically. I've noticed some young dancers do not seem to realize they even have this responsibility, and exercise little or no reflection inside or outside the studio. Having said that, where do the Vagonova or other style recommendations/prescriptions about choice come in? Are there only a certain number of pre-defined alternatives in a given style, or is a dancer free after mastering a given vocabulary (the training) to make unique or unprecedented choices? Where does the artist's own imagination and creativity come in? I am interested in hearing feedback on the relationship among technique and types of training, artistry and a distinction beween Vagonova and an American style. Where would Balanchine style, Checetti, or Royal or Paris Opera style fit? I am especially interested in the implications for American audiences of American training producing certain styles of dancers. Many have commented on how in the top American companies there are more and more internationally trained dancers. How are the American trained faring outside the US? Finally what are the implications for the economic future of American ballet. I would like to mention here a post that I made today in the musicalty thread that may be of interest to some engaged in this technique thread. Warning, my musicality post is even longer than this one Glad to have come out of the shadows at last. Moderator's note: *For those who don't read BalletTalk for Dancers, dks=Dancing Kids.

I am also glad to see the old and new imput on musicality--so difficult to define; so interesting to try!. I am a new member, parent and fan. I asked my dks* sometime ago to explain to me the relationship among musicality, movement quality, and artistry. We had talked previously about these issues separately. Upon reflection I realized it might help me to sort through things if I had these things distinguished from one another. Our discussions over the next several days and weeks proved useful. I'd like to share just some of the highlights of those discussions as well as other observations using a mix of relevant things I have noted over the years. I should say I danced myself years ago (absolutely recreationally!) and played an instrument. My dks have danced many styles in addition to ballet (their primary training) one does more singing, the other has played an instrument, and we have all observed many classes and performances. My dks pointed out to me that while there is a lot of overlap among artistry, movement quality, and musicality, it is possible to make some distinctions. Artistry encompasses everything else, at least potentially. Movement quality can be expressed even without music and is a particular way of mobilizing the body. Musicality involves how a dancer "feels" it. In addition, I would add, artistry goes beyond musicality and movement quality to include the artist's particular sensibility and the choices that inform that sensibility. This would encompass obvious things like timing and phrasing as well as not so obvious things like the study and reflection that some dancers invest in their way of inhabiting a character or executing a variation (the more dramatic or acting part of their craft). Coaching and the legacy of others who have danced and /or choreographed the part could enter in here. Inspired partnering might appear here as well. This is also one of the many specific entry points for "magic!" After much thought, I believe musicality has to do wth a performer (any performer) and their particular relationship with the music. Here I think the dancing "to," "through," "with," "carving," etc. earlier comments are all apt. What helps me here is to make a contrast with dancers who aren't musical. Sometimes the negative instance can help to clarify. For example, some people just dance and almost belatedly notice that there is music playing. I call this dancing "by" or "near" the music while acknowledging this can be not very near at all. I overheard a student struggling with this and describing to a teacher how hard it is to focus on the music and still keep in mind all the other things (counts, placement, the combination, etc.) necessary to make it possible to dance. It was very difficult for me even to understand this, being (if anything) over controlled by the music myself. This made me think about consistency and the availability of performers to their audience. Some people become so internally focused they are no longer very tuned in to ANY external stimuli (sadly even the even music, and more sadly sometimes even their audiences). After noting (rather uncharitably) some dancers lack of generosity in performance and trying to reconcile this with knowing what nice people they are, I realized it is simply their way of working. They access their performance from somewhere so personal and so deep they are no longer easily available to an audience when they dance. Some of these dancers go so deep they are barely relating even to the music (especially all dimensions of the music). Alternately other dancers are so unimaginitively (but consistently) related to the music that counts become everything. It's more math than music, and, ironically, this mechanistic dedication to the music can also become a lack of musicality. One of my dks' favorite teachers is truly old school, very performance oriented, and an octagenarian. He encourages dancers by telling them to "sing with their bodies." This phrase is, I think, one of the most compeling descriptions of musicality. What makes it so compelling as an analogy for me is that it also allows for the full range of relationships to the music--from the tone deaf to the most extreme virtuoso; from ballads to spirituals; opera to rap; yodelling to folksongs; singing in the shower to performing for 100,000 in a huge concert space. It also allows for the diverse of ways of relating to different aspects of the music: rhythym, melody, counterpointe, amplitude, genre, context, dynamics, etc. This can explain why one person's musicality yields consistency and another's the opposite. It also explains why people can disagree so radically about who does and does not have musicality as well as how this affects performance quality and stage presence. It also explains how a performer's artistry and personality may be very different (for ex. the shy individual who is transformed on stage into an irresistible phenomenon), and why classroom quality is so different from performance quality. It never ceases to amaze me how teachers try to get show quality/stage quality out of students in a classroom. I've noticed often the best performers need a real audience to get to real performance level, as well as how otherwise dedicated dancers who rely too heavily on the studio mirror often fail to impress in performance. Obviously technique figures into this whole discussion although I haven't focussed on it or even mentioned it. My idea is that technical expertise is absolutely essential. Without technique nothing else can happen. Having said that however, I believe technique, while necessary, is not sufficient. It must always be lower priority than everything else or dancers become mere technicians. Maybe you have athletes or gymnasts or contortionists or posers, or some combination of the above maybe, or something else entirely, but not artists. Dancers must subordinate everything to their art IMHO. This post is too long (always one of my many failings), but I hope some will find something to relate to along the way. :blush: Thanks for being here Ballet Talk. I am excited to come out of the shadows and would be very interested in any feedback on my ruminations offered here for your consideration. PS Someday (many, many posts from now), I hope to have a blog of my own... Moderator's note: *For those who don't read BalletTalk for Dancers, dks=Dancing Kids.

Thank you for the welcome, as well as the reassurance. It still occurs to me that in discussions of dancers of color or specefic regional issues (topics I've seen in old threads), it wouldn't take much to igure out who's who. There are so few dancers of color--especially in certain regions. As a recent issue of Dance magazine discussed these are continuing issues of concern, especially in ballet even more so than in modern. When dancing kids are still looking for work and or training, i.e. actively auditioning, it is fraught with all kinds of concerns for a parent. I have even been accused of impeding my children's progress and careers by even attempting to address issues of access, fairness, and diversity... Given the limited diversity these days, I can see the potential for problems on either board... Hoping for the day when this is no longer an issue.