Parma

Thanks for that link, "charming" is the exact word for that illustration. Love it.

The artist Helen Hancocks made a charming drawing of famous dance sequences from films. Charisse appears twice in the illustration, once in green and once in red. An American in Paris is also there, of course.

http://www.bfi.org.uk/news-opinion/news-bfi/features/how-many-classic-film-dance-scenes-can-you-spot

Sandik, you sound somewhat "old school" in these matters, as am I. Also, I love your use of the phrase "a happy choice", I use it when appropriate, myself I love using somewhat archaic words and phrases as long as they're at least somewhat self-explanatory.

Oh, Parma, that takes me back! We lived in the South for a time when I was a teenager (w-a-a-a-y back in the late 60's / early 70's) and it was also not uncommon for people refer to older men with whom they a friendly and respectful relationship as "Mr." plus their first names -- "Mr. Robert," e.g., or even "Mr. Bob" if "Bob" was how everyone knew him. One wouldn't refer to someone in a position of authority that way in public -- if Mr. Bob was your teacher, you'd never call him that in the classroom (in the classroom his name was "Sir") -- but in the private sphere, "Mr. Bob" was how you demonstrated both affection and respect.

Kathleen, that is absolutely still true. I forgot to say--to further complicate matters, the pronunciation for "Ms" can also sound like like the southern pronunciation for either "Mrs" or "Miss" (Mizz), so you just have to know, if you need to know. As a matter of fact, it's my personal belief that that pronunciation gets people out of a pickle when they don't know, lol. It works for all three!

And to even further complicate matters, there are just no hard-and-fast rules about these things, especially nowadays when people might be either modern about it the matter, or "old-school". For instance, some ministers of the church might be known as "Pastor First Name", when others would only ever be called "Pastor Last Name". It doesn't really depend on age, though that's as sure an indicator as any.

I just can't help myself from dredging up this old thread, because I didn't see something here which is still quite common in the south-referring to a woman of a certain age as "Miss" whether she was married or unmarried. For instance, my mother-in-law----she was obviously married to my husband's father before she was widowed, but from the time I met her until the day she died, she was "Miss Gloria" to me and anyone who didn't call her "Mother" or "Aunt", etc, or her intimate friends of her own generation who called her "Gloria". That's the case with a lot of older women here, whether they have been married or not. What I've never noticed before my own eyes is when the transition occurs-when they become old enough to be referred to as "Miss Whatever" by most of the people who know them who aren't directly related and of their own generation. I've never known a woman in person who was referred to as "Ms". Goodness but I'm dating myself! For that matter, I am already "Miss Melanie" (my first name) to my younger nephews' friends, lol. I have been married for over 30 years, but I'm not "Mrs" anything, I'm "Miss Melanie". It seems to indicate a familiarity combined with respect.

(Oh, I chose "Parma" when I signed up because it can be either ham or violets, and somedays you just don't which you are )

Thanks volcanohunter. I'm going to go watch this clip to notice the arm positions. I noticed the Hindu, etc, but didn't know that about the English, Russian, etc arm positions, it will be interesting to notice them.

I'm guessing this refers to the lyrics of "Stereophonic Sound."

"He's gotta have glorious Russian ballet or modern ballet or English ballet or Chinese ballet or Hindu ballet or Bali ballet or any ballet...and Stereophonic Sound."

Each of the styles is accompanied by appropriate arm positions, a prim en bas position representing English ballet.

Quiggen, I meant to ask you--what was the reference to English ballet? I'd like to be able to look for it next time I watch. Thank you!

Parma, yes it absolutely does look like Fred Astaire is doing a Gene Kelly routine in Silk Stockings. And there's a sly reference to English ballet.

I do like the Ritz Roll & Rock number best, the space, the use of the men and women who keep popping up. And Peter Lorre in Sweet Siberia is great, upstages the whole number – you just want to keep watching what he'll do next with his hands. I originally saw this movie in a film school summer class with Albert Johnson and Rouben Mamoulian who was very keen on technical details in the film. I keep remembering a tilting stage but can't find the clips.

Yes, the Cover Girl Alter Ego goes beyond the conceit ... and creates something abstract.

It's been pointed out that the Kelly persona is more comfortable with Comden and Green as writers (Singin in the Rain) than Lerner. Someone on Imdb says that one of the intentions of American in Paris was to get Kelly in a role closer to his early Pal Joey character, but if so, it doesn't seemed to have happened. (I can't find an in print source confirming ths.)

Don't (bad) dream ballets go back to Kurt Weill's Lady in the Dark with Ginger Rogers in the Gertrude Lawrence role?

FYI to all, I cut and pasted Parma's last post into our old Fred and Ginger thread in Other Arts. Thanks, Parma (and welcome to the board!)

Thanks, and I do apologise for going so far off-topic I've lurked here for a few years, I'm waaayyy out of my depth discussing dance with you all, but I learn a lot from reading your discussions

Ha, you have a point re "Lady In The Dark". For that matter, I didn't like Fred & Ginger together so much in their final, reunion film, "Barkleys Of Broadway". It seemed to me that Ginger had pretensions by then, not just in the movie either. And her voice when she plays that Sarah Bernhardt role!!! But in all the RKO teamings, they were just perfection together. (It goes against the grain, but my favorite is "Follow The Fleet"-I love their "dance competition" number, "Let Yourself Go", and the casino number "Let's Face The Music And Dance"--love that dramatic Art Deco feel and especially the ending).

Parma, yes it absolutely does look like Fred Astaire is doing a Gene Kelly routine in Silk Stockings. And there's a sly reference to English ballet.

I do like the Ritz Roll & Rock number best, the space, the use of the men and women who keep popping up. And Peter Lorre in Sweet Siberia is great, upstages the whole number – you just want to keep watching what he'll do next with his hands. I originally saw this movie in a film school summer class with Albert Johnson and Rouben Mamoulian who was very keen on technical details in the film. I keep remembering a tilting stage but can't find the clips.

Yes, the Cover Girl Alter Ego goes beyond the conceit ... and creates something abstract.

It's been pointed out that the Kelly persona is more comfortable with Comden and Green as writers (Singin in the Rain) than Lerner. Someone on Imdb says that one of the intentions of American in Paris was to get Kelly in a role closer to his early Pal Joey character, but if so, it doesn't seemed to have happened. (I can't find an in print source confirming ths.)

Don't (bad) dream ballets go back to Kurt Weill's Lady in the Dark with Ginger Rogers in the Gertrude Lawrence role?

I've always wondered if the dance sequence "Stereophonic Sound" which Fred Astaire did with Janis Paige in "Silk Stockings", was a bit of ribbing at some of Kelly's pretensions, with the lines about "Bali ballet" and "a dancer's gotta throw his back out and come sliding on his knees". I always get a giggle out of that song.

I would substitute "ambitions" for "pretensions" - Kelly was very much a proselytizer for dance and ballet, although the latter was not his metier (as he knew). This was a time when musical comedy was beginning to aim for something different. I don't think his reputation as a dancer will ever be where it once was, right by Astaire's, and that's appropriate, but Kelly's accomplishments should not be overlooked.

I like "An American in Paris" better than I used to do. It gets off to a dubious start with "By Strauss" but it recovers.Lerner's script is one of the rare instances where a writer won an Oscar for the script of a musical. The things that were unusual and even revolutionary about it are things we now take for granted. As mentioned previously, the "ballets" of the period generally suck - even the "good" ones, like "The Girl Hunt" in The Band Wagon aren't very good.

Quiggin, on 16 Feb 2015 - 1:15 PM, said:

Anyway isn’t Kelly at his best with only a few humble props, like the umbrella in Singin in the Rain and the newspaper in Summer Stock?

Yes.

For the most part -- although one of Kelly's best numbers is the "Alter Ego" routine from "Cover Girl."

I can live with "The Girl Hunt" because Fred seemed to be mocking the whole thing-film noir, "balletic" dance which wasn't ballet, the grandiosity, etc. But I'll admit that even the Great Astaire never seemed comfortable in balletic-style dances, and after he had the clout in Hollywood to choreograph his own dances, I wonder why he did them, when he said himself that ballet wasn't his strong suit by any stretch (he also said that neither was straight tap, especially after that gorgeous "Begin The Beguine" number he did with Eleanor Powell-I couldn't really see it, I look for his weakness every time I watch that number, which is a lot. I will say it's the only time I ever saw him actually show just the teeniest bit that he was having to "work for it" to keep up with a partner).

I love Kelly's "Slaughter On 10th Ave", as much because I love the music as anything.

I will always believe that Ginger made the best partner for Fred Astaire as a team, even though she wasn't at all the most gifted or best-trained one. She followed him perfectly.

I wish there was film of him dancing with his sister, who was said by everyone, including him, to be the more talented sibling. I can hardly imagine it!

Sorry, I brought Mr Astaire up and now I'll have to make myself shut up about him

Oops, on the quote thing-sorry!

You're right, I should have used a better word. It's just that for all that I recognise Gene Kelly's talent and undoubted contribution to dance on film, I've always been an Astaire girl, I suppose it's once again a matter of preference. Some of Gene Kelly's "higher flying" routines just made me slink a bit with embarrassment (he was also partial to striking matador poses, IIRC). I can only recall one of Astaire's which did so, off the top of my head-the "Ritz Roll And Rock" number, and even there, it wasn't his dancing so much as the number as a whole.

I've always wondered if the dance sequence "Stereophonic Sound" which Fred Astaire did with Janis Paige in "Silk Stockings", was a bit of ribbing at some of Kelly's pretensions, with the lines about "Bali ballet" and "a dancer's gotta throw his back out and come sliding on his knees". I always get a giggle out of that song.

I would substitute "ambitions" for "pretensions" - Kelly was very much a proselytizer for dance and ballet, although the latter was not his metier (as he knew). This was a time when musical comedy was beginning to aim for something different. I don't think his reputation as a dancer will ever be where it once was, right by Astaire's, and that's appropriate, but Kelly's accomplishments should not be overlooked.

I like "An American in Paris" better than I used to do. It gets off to a dubious start with "By Strauss" but it recovers.Lerner's script is one of the rare instances where a writer won an Oscar for the script of a musical. The things that were unusual and even revolutionary about it are things we now take for granted. As mentioned previously, the "ballets" of the period generally suck - even the "good" ones, like "The Girl Hunt" in The Band Wagon aren't very good.

Quiggin, on 16 Feb 2015 - 1:15 PM, said:

Anyway isn’t Kelly at his best with only a few humble props, like the umbrella in Singin in the Rain and the newspaper in Summer Stock?

Yes.

For the most part -- although one of Kelly's best numbers is the "Alter Ego" routine from "Cover Girl."

I've always wondered if the dance sequence "Stereophonic Sound" which Fred Astaire did with Janis Paige in "Silk Stockings", was a bit of ribbing at some of Kelly's pretensions, with the lines about "Bali ballet" and "a dancer's gotta throw his back out and come sliding on his knees". I always get a giggle out of that song. Fred Astaire was such a tasteful dancer who modestly described himself as "just a song and dance man".

Glad you liked the clip, Parma..! (And thanks too for your repost...almost five years after I started the thread! )

I apologise, I didn't even notice! I was doing a search for more info on this riveting ballerina, and your thread came up

I adore her. She certainly isn't the most refined or elegant dancer, but when she dances, that personality just sucks me right into the story or the mood, and her technique is certainly good enough so that I don't spend the time noticing that a foot isn't perfectly pointed instead of watching the whole package. She seems to put her all into every dance, she believes in what she's dancing.

I love the stories about her-how her fellow dancers had to hold her by the skirt so she wouldn't race onto the stage too soon in her overwhelming desire to dance, how she danced herself into the orchestra pit in her extravagance, how she fractured her leg in a ballet once but continued until the end, then fainted from pain at the curtain call.

She told how Stalin called her "dragonfly" and preferred that she dance in thin skirts rather than a tutu.

In WWII, she went all over the front to dance for the troops.

I wish there were more film footage of her dancing. I'm surprised she never toured in the West, as she was highly placed in the local Communist Party and I would think would have been trusted. Maybe they didn't think her style would be appreciated in the West.

Anyhow, didn't Russia during the Soviet era have its own period of emphasising athleticism over artistry, with dancers such as Olga Lepeshinskaya? I actually like her, her explosiveness and strength are amazing to watch, but when I watch her make a run into a "fish leap" (is that the correct term for when they do backwards almost blind leaps into the partner's arms?), it's more reminiscent of gymnastic floor exercises than ballet. But I still love her, she's just a charismatic and fascinating dancer.

Nudity in ballet-no thank you, especially in classical/romantic ballets, but preferably in none. One of the things I love about ballet is the aura of romance and glamour in the older ballets, and nudity destroys that. Besides, most of the heroines in the older ballets are supposed to be young girls, virginal and/or ethereal, and nudity would shatter that aura. Also, I think nudity is incompatible with the artifice of classical ballet. And finally, call me a prude-nudity is for painting and sculpture, when done tastefully.

As an example of a completely untrained audience member-I preferred the first clip, the black and white one. It seemed that the tenderness, delicacy, and vulnerablity were progressively diluted in the following examples.

I don't really know much about ballet and have only been able to see it on tv, youtube, dvds, etc, but "I know what I like", and I like the old-fashioned style (excuse lack of knowledge here) best. My favorite ballerinas so far are Olga Spessivtseva and Olga Lepeshinskaya (though I suppose she wouldn't neccesarily be considered especially "old style", she's "Soviet bravura style" or something, is that correct?) Both entrance me with both their movement and their storytelling. From the little I know of the different-styles? schools? I like the Bournonville best, and the attack-dog style of Lepeshinskaya, and the introverted yet charming style of Spessivtseva. I never get tired of being fascinated with the charm of it. In fact I'd say that "charm" is what my favorites all have in common, in very different ways. This won't be a very popular thing to say, I think, but I don't even feel my lack of ability to be able to see live ballet (very much, I know I would like to if it were easier for me) because I do know that the styles I love aren't what's happening right now. Actually I'd need a time machine to see the ballet I love best. It's really not just because that's not how it's danced anymore, it's also because women (and men) just aren't like that now, charming in that way. Oh well.

I'm not that knowledgeable, so maybe it's been done, but here goes--there's a fairy tale where 12 sister princesses always are found sleeping in their beds in the morning but their dancing slippers are always worn to shreds. Their father the king wants an answer and promises treasure and a princess for a bride to whoever can solve the mystery. One prince gets help from an old witch by use of a cloak which makes him invisible. He follows the princesses, taking jewelled limbs of trees dripping with precious gems as proof. The princesses hear the snaps and get nervous, but go along anyway. He dances with one of them-the most beautiful (I think she's the eldest) while there. They all sneak back home across the river to the palace in the golden gondolas always waiting for them. The Prince (I think he's a Prince) produces the proof and gets his bride and they all live happily ever after. I would love to see this done in a traditional, even Romantic, style. What music? Beats me. I think the sets and costumes could be beautiful, very dazzling and other-worldly and would be a good story to stage and choreograph in a traditional manner.

Tamara Karsavina, at the top of my list all alone. I stare and stare at her pictures, and wish just one ballerina like her could possibly exist in the 21st century. I am fascinated with her face, body, and entire appearance (enhanced by the dainty style of fashion of her time). Alas, it could never be.

I also add Kirsten Simone and Mette Honningen to my list. Ever since I saw them in the Disney film "Ballerina", I can't forget them. I am fascinated with both their beauty and with Mette's modest air of good breeding, a style in its last gasp at the time of this film. Kirsten Simone looks like a beautiful princess from a fairytale come to life, which is entirely fitting in the Copenhagen setting. Kirsten would be wearing "Diorissima", while Mette would be wearing a lovely faint violet cologne, suited for a well-bred young girl.

Moira Shearer for beauty of feature and coloring, well suited to the late Forties, with the gorgeous white white skin redhaired women of Scottish extract were known for. When I see her wardrobe in the film, I can just smell the elegant yet understated Guerlain perfume.

And one that I must mention just to add a name yet unmentioned-Ludmilla Tcherina from the same film, "The Red Shoes". I don't know much about her dancing, but in her scene from that movie where she is walking with a poodle to the fashion show where Lermentov has planned to "accidentally" meet her-she is just the epitome of Aristocratic White Russian glamor and French chic (entirely fitting, as she was the daughter of an aristocratic Russian father, but was raised in France). That walk, that chic ensemble, combined with that glamorous exotic air stereotypically attributed to Russian ballerinas in the popular view in that day-that scene of her epitomised it all. On her, I can smell the Robert Piguet "Bandit".

But Karsavina is my ideal, the epitome of the "look" of the Russian ballerinas just coming into their own in the West at that time-closely followed by Pavlova and Spessivtseva (appearance-wise, I'm not speaking of their dancing here). They seemed to be ballet's version of the fashionable "type" of the day, as shown by Lillian Gish, Mary Pickford, Mabel Normand, et al, in silent film-a dainty, flowerlike face accentuated by the dainty, romantic, styles of the era which heightened this fashionable look-the bandeau bodices, the

maiden fillet" and bandeau headdresses. I adore that style, and Karsavina is ballet's offering of the look. Karsavina would be wearing Guerlain's "L'Huere Bleue".