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bad taste/taste/taste differences


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Mel, your points are interesting and well taken. However, whatever "artistic vision" a choreographer might be trying to express when he/she makes women lie prone with their faces pressed to the floor, I will never ever like seeing women used in this manner, which I consider to be disrespectful to say the least.

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Expanding on these comments - where does "seemliness" fall into taste for people?

We've had a few comments on this already. kfw said that "good taste is moral taste". Cargill mentioned that she feels nudity is in bad taste. Bobbi is talking about women being dragged or left in awkward positions as disrespectful.

I'll admit I don't agree with the above positions. But it's obvious that plenty of people here do. Relativism may have had the greater intellectual currency at least when I was being schooled, but this reminds me of our discussion on mime where everyone answered a poll saying they liked mime, and then many of us complained about La Bayadere et al., because there was too little dancing. We know what the party line is, but there's a disconnect between that and our actual feelings.

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Bobbi's objection to the Wheeldon choreography suggests the question: Are there certain bodily positions in ballet that are inherently in bad taste, or at least unseemly? I'm thinking of someone I used to know who considered the way the women spread their legs in Agon to be in bad taste. Presumably not many of us here would think so. But while recognizing that there's no arguing over taste, is there something I might have said at the time to explain why the Agon choreography is not in bad taste?

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Good question Farrell Fan...and I'm glad this thread is still alive and kicking. And, Leigh, I like your relativism "currency" - are we in the same generation? ;)

Hans, I think your points are well taken when you write:

If something is in good taste, it will not be found tiresome when experienced repeatedly. Haydn's "surprise chord" might make you jump the first time you hear it, and 32 fast fouettes might indeed be thrilling, but an entire symphony played fortissimo or an entire ballet of fast pirouettes will become boring fast. Such details must be used sparingly; only then will the audience retain its interest for them because they are seen within their proper context.
And I have to applaud Nanatchka when she explains the difference between preferences v.s. bad taste when she writes:
If you prefer Picasso to Matisse, I don't agree, but it's a matter of prefence. (De gustibus...) If you prefer Leroy Neiman, that's bad taste--or, in your lexicon, a lack of taste. (A passion for kitsch is beyond the scope of this conversation, but there is certainly such a thing as "knowing" bad taste .)
But am I right in thinking that Leroy Neiman is the fellow who paints a lot of "sports" subjects such as sailing races, etc.?

Yet, interestingly, my cohorts and I absolutely loved Wheeldon's Carousel when we saw it recently and never for a moment did I think of the ballet as having a mysoginistic moment in it! In fact, it was to my mind's eye one of the most beautiful and moving ballets I have seen in a long time. I actually thought it was by Jerome Robbins... not that I'm an aficianado in any sense. Quite frankly, I barely remember the scene that you, Bobbi, refer to. To me it was what I might think could be described as a neo classical, quasi plotless ballet....along the lines of NYCB's (I beg forgiveness from the choreographer whose name escapes me at the moment) "Afternoon of the Faun". Is my reaction versus Bobbi's a "matter of taste" or a preference? Is this where the "de gustibus" wars begin? ;)

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Originally posted by Bobbi

really offensive, mysoginistic and in very bad taste.  

While Bobbi was describing her reaction to Wheeldon's Carousel, theses terms also sum up my views of MacMillan's Manon. Its near-gynecological excesses go past bad taste and into pornography.

The score itself is in bad taste, a pastiche of a number of Massenet's works that doesn't really start or end anywhere.

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I would like to add another term to the general discussion, though: vulgar. I don't think it is necessarily the same as bad taste--while it may be a distinction without a difference, vulgarity is closer, I think, to tackiness. It is aware of its own lack of pretension and breeding and can even comment upon this lack--which may be a sign of pretension itself. Bad taste is doesn't know any better. One sign of true bad taste is the vociferousness with which it is held to be the only way to look at or deal with something.

For example, not many people would consider J. S. Bach vulgar. But what about the transcriptions of Bach by Ferrucio Busoni for solo pianoof the Bach Toccata and Fuge in D minor? And what if it is played on a Bosendorfer grand by a soloist of the percussive school of playing?

Is "romanticising" the quintessential baroque composer vulgar in itself, or would it become so based on how it is played.

To go a step further there are the Leopold Stowkowski transcriptions of the same work. It is for a mid 20th century orchestra with steel strings,the A set at 440, horns with valves--none of which, one imagines, Bach could have imagined. This, it seems, is truly bad taste--with no reference to Historically Informed Performance (ugh!) necessary. As it happens, I have a recording of this work that I still play occasionally, but it sounds more like third rate movie music than anything Bach would recognize.

If Bach-Busoni has been placed in the canon by a combination of long familiarity and the reputation of Busoni, Bach-Stowkowski is still considered (if thought of at all) as a party piece. But if one accepts Busoni, why not Stowkowski?

I realize, by the way, that everyone knows Bach but fewer and fewer know Stowkowski. The best introduction to him is on the Chuck Jones cartoon "Long Haired Hare", in which Bugs Bunny, as the legendary conductor "Leopold" (no last name needed) putting a symphony orchestra through its paces and almost killing Elmer Fudd my making him hold a high note forever.

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Ed, thanks for that Bugs Bunny reference - I can still picture poor Elmer!

I also like your description of vulgar as being more of a self determined form of bad taste. I guess I'd prefer vulgar over bad taste any day. ;)

Wish I could comment more upon your musically referenced post!

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It's fortuitous that you brought up this subject now, Ed, because Paul Taylor choreographed a piece, "Promethean Fire," to Bach-Stokowski last summer for the American Dance Festival in Durham, NC, which is being seen during his company's current NYC engagement. I'll see it next week. According to the NY Times review yesterday, "The piece is set to music by Bach, orchestrated by Stokowski, whose overarching grandeur sets the tone for the new work even before the curtain rises." There's been talk that "Premethean Fire" was Mr. Taylor's response to 9/11. But in typical Taylor fashion, he's said he was more influenced by "Fantasia."

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I remember a Stokowski recording of a "Sleeping Beauty Suite" that contained the Rose Adagio. All proceeded nicely, and had some nice musical ideas I hadn't heard before in any other conductor's interpretation. Then all of a sudden, at the last set of one-hand attitude promenades - grand pause! - and the rest prestissimo! "Is this," thought I, "the music that launched the 'Moscow Ballet' sketch in Bye Bye Birdie and scorched one perfectly good set of pointe shoes?"

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