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On 2/13/2018 at 5:14 AM, Mashinka said:

I imagine what Copley has learnt and I imagine a lot of other people in the business will take on board is that it is extremely unwise to work in the US.

? Is it better elsewhere?

 

On 2/12/2018 at 10:28 PM, aurora said:

it taught you to empathize with the perpetrator rather than the victim, and that is even sadder.

Well, maybe he learned about the horrors of saying or doing something.  Not be nice to victims, but rather, don't expose oneself to suffer, loss, or worse.

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35 minutes ago, Vs1 said:

Well, maybe he learned about the horrors of saying or doing something.  Not be nice to victims, but rather, don't expose oneself to suffer, loss, or worse

Does it matter what his motive is, if it results in the wished-for behavior, which is to stop making sexualized remarks in the workplace?

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But it doesn't. It does the opposite. You are taught as intended to shut up or risk everything.

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And any observer would not learn compassion, but rather, don't be like the  punished complainant.

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Anyone who is willing to make a complaint risks being treated as a whistleblower, which is a dog's life.  It has to be worth the risk, or the complainant wouldn't have rejected the union route and have gone to management.

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35 minutes ago, Helene said:

Anyone who is willing to make a complaint risks being treated as a whistleblower, which is a dog's life.  It has to be worth the risk, or the complainant wouldn't have rejected the union route and have gone to management.

Though of course he might not have fully anticipated the effects of his choice. So it has to have been thought worth the risk at the time, and he could have different feelings now. Just a possibility, I'm not suggesting that's necessarily the case.

Edited by nanushka

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That is true, @nanushka, and he could have misread the tide, especially when men raise the complaint.

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15 minutes ago, Helene said:

That is true, @nanushka, and he could have misread the tide, especially when men raise the complaint.

This whole conversation literally makes no sense.

I was speaking to an earlier commenter on this thread who said they had experienced sexual harassment and yet was castigating the person who reported Copely at great length. I was saying SHE had not learned compassion. This entire offshoot of the conversation has been from Vs1 quoting me out of context and seemingly not understanding what I wrote.

Edited by aurora

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4 minutes ago, aurora said:

This whole conversation literally makes no sense.

I was speaking to an earlier commentor on this thread who said they had experienced sexual harassment and was castigating the person who reported Copely at great length. I was saying SHE had not learned compassion. This entire offshoot of the conversation has been from Vs1 quoting me out of context and seemingly not understanding what I wrote.

True, I think. But taking Vs1's comment to be referring to the alleged victim (which your original reference was not), I think it does make sense.

Edited to add:

Actually, I think Vs1's original comment may have been about Copley, and then we switched to talking about the chorus member.

 

Edited by nanushka

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31 minutes ago, Helene said:

That is true, @nanushka, and he could have misread the tide, especially when men raise the complaint.

True. He opens himself up to criticism from multiple sides. ("Maybe he wasn't enough of a man to take it.") ("Maybe he was being homophobic.") (“Maybe he isn’t fluent in English.”) (etc.)

Edited by nanushka

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Just now, nanushka said:

True, I think. But taking Vs1's comment to be referring to the alleged victim (which your original reference was not), I think it does make sense.

 

But I was quoted and then misinterpreted. why would the victim learn compassion from being victimized? Or was it Copely who would have from being called out... I actually can't understand what Vs1 was saying.

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1 minute ago, aurora said:

But I was quoted and then misinterpreted. why would the victim learn compassion from being victimized? Or was it Copely who would have from being called out... I actually can't understand what Vs1 was saying.

No, you're right, you were I think. I edited to add what I think is an explanation of how the convo proceeded above.

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10 hours ago, Vs1 said:

? Is it better elsewhere?

 

It  depends on context, a remark like that wouldn't get you sacked in Britain, under some circumstances such as a history of offending colleagues it could result in a reprimand from HR (three such reprimands and you're out) but if said in a jocular way, it would offend no one.   The London theatre scene is notoriously louche and if sexual innuendo offends people they are in the wrong profession.   There is total incredulity and a great deal of anger here over Copley's treatment, I have no doubt that in the UK he could make a case of unfair dismissal and win.

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16 hours ago, Helene said:

Anyone who is willing to make a complaint risks being treated as a whistleblower, which is a dog's life.  It has to be worth the risk, or the complainant wouldn't have rejected the union route and have gone to management.

Unless one never knew of the risk based on American education teaching laws are applied justly, not based on power.  And assuming a union route is available and also not biased or somehow corrupted.

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On ‎2‎/‎17‎/‎2018 at 1:50 PM, Vs1 said:

Unless one never knew of the risk based on American education teaching laws are applied justly, not based on power.  And assuming a union route is available and also not biased or somehow corrupted.

Are you saying it is or it isn't?

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On ‎2‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 9:27 PM, nanushka said:

Though of course he might not have fully anticipated the effects of his choice. So it has to have been thought worth the risk at the time, and he could have different feelings now. Just a possibility, I'm not suggesting that's necessarily the case.

or we teach and advocate it, including here, and call them heroes, and then complain about the consequences, and say one should have anticipated them, somehow

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