Chase Johnsey leaves Trocks; Joins ENB

[cubanmiamiboy]

27 minutes ago, aurora said:

No. You don't get to decide what to call people according to your own beliefs. If you are a decent human being you call people by the term for the gender THEY identify as.

And I really wish you'd stop bringing up pre- or post-op. That has nothing to do with gender orientation.

 

Humm...sorry to differ, Aurora. You can call Chase-(or whoever)- a "she" if you want to.  It is only up to myself the decision to call him a "he" however "indecent" that might sound to you. I don't know how he calls himself right now, but if at some point the issue of my election comes up as offensive I am sure I will be called upon by the mods, just like I just was-( fair deal). 

And to the issue as surgery irrelevance, the original post states the word "transition", and in th world of transition, surgery is a key element, for which there is a pivotal before and after. 

We just don't know details here.

[nanushka]

From Wikipedia again (emphasis added in bold):

Quote

For transgender and transsexual people, this process commonly involves reassignment therapy (which may include hormone replacement therapy and sex reassignment surgery), with their gender identity being opposite that of their birth-assigned sex and gender. Transitioning might involve medical treatment, but it does not always involve it.

...

Transitioning is a process, not an event, that can take anywhere between several months and several years. Some people, especially genderqueer people, may spend their whole life transitioning as they redefine and re-interpret their gender as time passes.

...

Transitioning is sometimes confused with sex reassignment surgery (SRS), but that is only one possible element of transitioning.

Johnsey identifies as "gender queer because I am not one gender more than another."

Edited January 29, 2018 by nanushka

[aurora]

3 minutes ago, cubanmiamiboy said:

Humm...sorry to differ, Aurora. You can call Chase-(or whoever)- a "she" if you want to.  It is only up to myself the decision to call him a "he" however "indecent" that might sound to you. I don't know how he calls himself right now, but if at some point the issue of my election comes up as offensive I am sure I will be called upon by the mods, just like I just was-( fair deal). 

And to the issue as surgery irrelevance, the original post states the word "transition", and in th world of transition, surgery is a key element, for which there is a pivotal before and after. 

We just don't know details here.

Transition could simply mean to living full time as a woman, it could mean hormonal treatment or it could mean surgery. You are simply wrong.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transgender

Transgender people have a gender identity or gender expression that differs from their assigned sex.

Transgender people are sometimes called transsexual if they desire medical assistance to transition from one sex to another.

Many transgender people experience gender dysphoria, and some seek medical treatments such as hormone replacement therapy, sex reassignment surgery, or psychotherapy.^[12] Not all transgender people desire these treatments, and some cannot undergo them for financial or medical reasons.

[canbelto]

Hmm, I always thought it was just etiquette to call people by what they self-identify as. 

For instance if someone insisted on addressing Barack Obama as "Kenyan" wouldn't that be really rude and disrespectful? 

[cubanmiamiboy]

9 minutes ago, canbelto said:

Hmm, I always thought it was just etiquette to call people by what they self-identify as. 

For instance if someone insisted on addressing Barack Obama as "Kenyan" wouldn't that be really rude and disrespectful? 

I respect your opinion, although I don't share it. And no....I won't called a guy with an implanted horn a unicorn just because he feels like one.

But back to Chase. For me HE is a dancer, or a "bailarin"-(in Spanish, "ballerino" in Italian).  And I would totally understand if you call him a "she" and a "ballerina". 

And voila, peace out everyone!😛♥️✌️

[aurora]

1 minute ago, cubanmiamiboy said:

I respect your opinion, although I don't share it. And no....I won't called a guy with an implanted horn a unicorn just because he feels like one.

 

This analogy is like people saying gay marriage will lead to people being able to marry their pets.

And like that analogy it is deeply offensive and trivializing.

[nanushka]

If Candice Thompson at Dance Magazine can be trusted to have done her job effectively and sensitively, Chase apparently prefers the masculine pronouns. From the previously linked article:

Quote

 In a YouTube video, he outlined allegations of harassment and humiliation over his celebrated 14-year tenure with the company, ranging from discrimination for appearing too feminine to being told that he could no longer perform with the company should he choose to undergo a gender transition.

 

[cubanmiamiboy]

21 minutes ago, aurora said:

And like that analogy it is deeply offensive and trivializing.

So we agree to disagree then! Isn't that wonderful?🤗

[canbelto]

If you watch the YT video Chase specifically says that this is a pattern of behavior and restrictions on what they're allowed to wear, act like, etc. and it's been ongoing for several years. Either way sad situation and I hope he finds a company because he is VERY talented.

[Helene]

1 hour ago, cubanmiamiboy said:

Sorry about that. It is certainly used in the medical field for pre-op trans patients, although I understand it might had gone out there to become slang. I guess  we can then still use the regular "he" or "she", according to our own beliefs and perceptions. He or she are definitely NOT slur, nor offensive. I still can't get used to use the modern "their" for sure.

Medical people say all sorts of things among each other that are not found in textbooks or peer-reviewed journals, like referring to patients by their ailments instead of their names. I once had a very tired intern come to draw blood in the middle of the night, and he recognized from my chart who I was from the surgery he had watched and exclaimed, "You're the cyst!"  (Apparently, it was quite the eventful cyst surgery.)

"He" or "she" are not offensive in themselves, but they can be used offensively, whether by refusing to call someone by their preferred pronoun or by calling someone by their non-preferred pronoun.  Context is key.

[kylara7]

"Agree to disagree" is for things like "Blue is the best colour" or "Medium-rare is the optimal level of doneness for a steak" and not for whether it is ok to disrespect, dehumanize, degrade, and fetishize a whole group of people by deliberately using slurs and offensive language to describe them or to deliberately misaddress them or to state erroneous opinions and misunderstandings as fact.


 

Edited January 30, 2018 by kylara7

[Helene]

And with that, everyone, stop discussing the discussion and get back on topic.

There's enough to discuss within the news that's been reported and Chase Johnsey's video.

[canbelto]

Last year Chase Johnsey won the Best Male Dancer Award in the UK's National Dance Awards:

https://www.theguardian.com/stage/2017/feb/06/chase-johnsey-success-national-dance-awards

For some more samples of Chase's talent as a dancer he does fouettes that would certainly make some ABT ballerinas green with envy:

 

[Helene]

I find it ironic that the explanation used for why gay actors should be closeted or "discrete" is that they have to project the image of hetero-normal masculinity to sell product, and that members of the Trocks are expected to project an image of masculinity, even if this a broader "acceptable" range offstage to sell product.

[kfw]

2 minutes ago, Helene said:

I find it ironic that the explanation used for why gay actors should be closeted or "discrete" is that they have to project the image of hetero-normal masculinity to sell product, and that members of the Trocks are expected to project an image of masculinity, even if this a broader "acceptable" range offstage to sell product.

I would think that pressure would be a thing of the past; maybe not. In any case, I think the fact that even a ballet company of ballerina impersonators, who would presumably all be on the same page about gender issues, has conflicts regarding sexuality and its expression is an indication of how complex and difficult and irreducible to simple formulations the issues regarding it are. I wish Johnson all the best. Not having taken time to read the research and consider the issue with the time it deserves, I don't know what that best is. 

[nanushka]

53 minutes ago, kfw said:

I would think that pressure would be a thing of the past; maybe not. In any case, I think the fact that even a ballet company of ballerina impersonators, who would presumably all be on the same page about gender issues, has conflicts regarding sexuality and its expression is an indication of how complex and difficult and irreducible to simple formulations the issues regarding it are. I wish Johnson all the best. Not having taken time to read the research and consider the issue with the time it deserves, I don't know what that best is. 

No research needed, I think. Simply the opportunity to be the self that he truly knows himself to be and to do the work that fulfills him and that he does best, without those two things needlessly coming into conflict with one another.

Also, sexuality and gender identity are not the same thing.

Edited January 30, 2018 by nanushka

[ABT Fan]

1 hour ago, canbelto said:

For some more samples of Chase's talent as a dancer he does fouettes that would certainly make some ABT ballerinas green with envy:

Uh, no kidding!

And, the dancer who plays Siegfried here - what legs and feet! What jumps!

My favorite clip is of Chase's white swan posted earlier. Such great comedic timing and not overly done. Brilliant!

[kfw]

41 minutes ago, nanushka said:

No research needed, I think. Simply the opportunity to be the self that he truly knows himself to be and to do the work that fulfills him and that he does best, without those two things needlessly coming into conflict with one another.

Also, sexuality and gender identity are not the same thing.

Not the same but inextricable. Knowing oneself is a lifetime's work and what one "knows" changes. It is also understood and expected that identity will be contested; there are all kinds of opinion about all kinds of people. ETA: A doctor knows a patient in a way he may not know himself. A psychiatrist may know him in another way. The patient is not in these cases fully knowledgeable about himself (of course neither is the professional). But I hope Chase is able to keep dancing and enjoying it. 

[cubanmiamiboy]

2 hours ago, Helene said:

I find it ironic that the explanation used for why gay actors should be closeted or "discrete" is that they have to project the image of hetero-normal masculinity to sell product, and that members of the Trocks are expected to project an image of masculinity, even if this a broader "acceptable" range offstage to sell product.

I think that rather than being masculine, they are expected to be, at least, all males. I find that totally understandable. Buttons can be pushed to a certain point, and trans have been featured in runaway shows. Ballet is a different animal as we know. I am sure it will be VERY hard to feature a male to female trans in the Royal Ballet female corps, as they probably want to keep being exactly that....an all female ballet corps. The Trocks want an all male troupe. Chase can sue, I guess, if feeling unjustified targeted.

[cubanmiamiboy]

48 minutes ago, kfw said:

I hope Chase is able to keep dancing and enjoying it. 

I hope so too, although if what he wants is being on pointe, then out of the Trocks his opportunities are very limited.

[Jayne]

There are progressive troupes in Western countries that would hire him.  A lot of modern work is already gender-bending.  

I think a company like LA Dance Project, Nederlans Dans Teatre, or even Les Ballets Monte Carlo would hire him just as a phenom dancer, and create meaningful work on him. It would make media headlines at first, but the media would move on. 

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by Jayne

[nanushka]

9 hours ago, kfw said:

Not the same but inextricable. 

That may be so. Many things are inextricable from many other things. But using the terms interchangeably perpetuates a longstanding confusion that has, historically and in the present, caused a lot of problems and pain for a lot of people.

So far as I can tell, the company does not have "conflicts regarding sexuality and its expression." The company has conflicts regarding gender identity and expression.

In any case, my point was simply to suggest a correction to what I assumed was a mere “slip of the keys." If the statement as written was indeed what you meant, then I suppose we must disagree on that.

Edited January 30, 2018 by nanushka

[nanushka]

10 hours ago, cubanmiamiboy said:

I think that rather than being masculine, they are expected to be, at least, all males. 

Again, though, that’s not actually all that Johnsey is alleging. According to him, it is indeed the dancers’ degrees of perceived masculinity that was being policed. He is not trans, and yet he alleges having suffered longstanding discrimination.

Quote

 In a YouTube video, he outlined allegations of harassment and humiliation over his celebrated 14-year tenure with the company, ranging from discrimination for appearing too feminine to being told that he could no longer perform with the company should he choose to undergo a gender transition.

...

When it came to the show, we were encouraged to be who we were. But in ballet class, it was a different story. We weren't allowed to express or present ourselves as we wanted; we couldn't wear our hair in buns. Even what you wore to the airport was monitored.

...

I had spoken with my artistic director [Tory Dobrin] about it several times. He always said he was concerned about how we would look in front of the crew and the presenters. Someone in the company once had to cut their hair because a television reporter assumed they were transgender. It was never acknowledged that it was unfair to ask this of us.

...

I look male during the day time, but I am most comfortable performing as a woman.

 

Edited January 30, 2018 by nanushka

[kfw]

1 hour ago, nanushka said:

That may be so. Many things are inextricable from many other things. But using the terms interchangeably perpetuates a longstanding confusion that has, historically and in the present, caused a lot of problems and pain for a lot of people.

So far as I can tell, the company does not have "conflicts regarding sexuality and its expression." The company has conflicts regarding gender identity and expression.

In any case, my point was simply to suggest a correction to what I assumed was a mere “slip of the keys." If the statement as written was indeed what you meant, then I suppose we must disagree on that.

We may disagree, I don't know, but the last thing I'm interested in doing is causing anyone pain. 

[nanushka]

14 minutes ago, kfw said:

We may disagree, I don't know, but the last thing I'm interested in doing is causing anyone pain. 

I certainly didn't mean to suggest that you were – just that, in my opinion, you were (inadvertently, I assumed) perpetuating a confusion that has, in many cases, caused problems and pain.