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POB dancers in Linc Ctr Festival's Jewels

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33 minutes ago, Drew said:

 

That's not just an accent, that's the pas de deux 'signature'-- is it possible they just did it in some very, very soft way that obscured it? (Either way...disconcerting to read.)

No, the stacatto movement of Emeralds was actually left out of the portion that canbelto was alluding to.  It was not merely obscured or softened. My jaw dropped. 

 

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For what I'm talking about, it's 22:50 in this video. The POB dvd with Clairemarie Osta definitely includes this movement too. It's not as staccato as the way NYCB does it but it's there. Actually when I watch the 2005 dvd I'm shocked at how much that French style has deteriorated. 

 

 

Edited by canbelto

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11 hours ago, Gnossie said:

Alu: the company's only born show man, should be a principal but never will be, but anyway he's not dancing in NYC because he's injured. Fabien Revillion is his replacement in the pdt, he's ok.

 

Moreau: OK dancer, pretty to look at,  that's about it.

Moreau actually replaced Alu in yesterday evening's performance.  Is Revillion doing pas de trois second cast?

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21 hours ago, miliosr said:

I came thisclose to buying a ticket and flying to New York to see Alu based on word-of-mouth about him. (Mimi Paul is said to be very high on him.) I wonder if he will hang on forever waiting to be named etoile. Emmanuel Thibault should be a cautionary tale for him. Revillion, too, should consider decamping to another location where he could probably be a principal dancer.

 

We can open a topic to talk aout Alu or you can pm me, but this was supposed to be his moment, despite the war with the managment he was going to be taken on tour and this was his chance to dazzle the "americains" and then he got injured, that's too bad luck, if the greatest dancer of his generation (Thilbaut) didn't got promoted then Alu has no chance of being promoted with this managment, he would eventually leave POB for antoher company or leave the company to start his won dance project(wich he has already done because, you know, a dancer needs more than one ocasional Mercutio every now and then)

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15 hours ago, canbelto said:

 Actually when I watch the 2005 dvd I'm shocked at how much that French style has deteriorated. 

I told you so........:(

 

13 hours ago, MRR said:

Moreau actually replaced Alu in yesterday evening's performance.  Is Revillion doing pas de trois second cast?

 

Yes.

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14 hours ago, MRR said:

Moreau actually replaced Alu in yesterday evening's performance.  Is Revillion doing pas de trois second cast?

Based on curtain calls pictures, Marc Moreau danced again in the second cast

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8 hours ago, Gnossie said:

but this was supposed to be his moment, despite the war with the managment he was going to be taken on tour and this was his chance to dazzle the "americains" and then he got injured, that's too bad luck,

There was a time not so long ago when I suggested that Alu go to ABT. But now they have Alban Lendorf, who has a similar physique and a similar "big" personality. If I'm not mistaken, Alu has guested with Tamara Rojo's English National Ballet. So he does have options.

Edited by miliosr

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Gnossie, what do you think it would require to recapture the french style at POB?

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On ‎7‎/‎21‎/‎2017 at 3:53 AM, Gnossie said:

 

 

.Park and O'Neill are outsiders.

 

Hello, Gnossie, 

 

I referenced this in my post about Emeralds in the LC thread. Is your statement a reference to what some have stated is a neglect of the French style at POB?  I know Hannah is from Australia and received her training there, and I surmise with Park, it's a similar situation, but aren't they learning the French style by being company members?  What do you see as the impediment?  Why do you think of them as outsiders?  I am curious because I don't know the French school much at all and I'd like to better understand now that I've had the pleasure of seeing them yesterday. Thank you.

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44 minutes ago, KarenAG said:

 

 I know Hannah is from Australia

Hannah is from New Zealand.

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2 minutes ago, kbarber said:

Hannah is from New Zealand.

Yes, you're right - she trained, at least in part, in Australia.  Thanks for the correction, Katherine.

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7 hours ago, KarenAG said:
7 hours ago, kbarber said:

Hannah is from New Zealand.

Yes, you're right - she trained, at least in part, in Australia.  Thanks for the correction, Katherine.

 

Hannah O'Neil was born in Japan to parents from New Zealand and Japan, and her initial training (until 8) was in Japan. (she does have Japanese nationality).

And she was trained in both NZ and Australia (she graduated from Australian Ballet School)

So it is hard to define what singular country she is from.

http://hannah-oneill.com/profile/

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On 23/7/2017 at 1:17 AM, Jayne said:

Gnossie, what do you think it would require to recapture the french style at POB?

 

I actually wasn't able to hold some tears while reading your question, Jayne...

It would require to drop the awful pastiche of a method that is being passed down in the Academy now, It would require to go back to the REAL French ballet method of dancing, It would require a true balletic encyclopedia, a true classicist...in short someone with the capacities to run the school properly, to take over.

it would require a goverment that cared about it, but the ones in charge really don't care about who they appoint, that's the problem in France, everyone brags about "the tradition" when actually they don't know heck about the tradition, à plaurer :crying:

 

 

 

16 hours ago, KarenAG said:

 

Hello, Gnossie, 

 

I referenced this in my post about Emeralds in the LC thread. Is your statement a reference to what some have stated is a neglect of the French style at POB?  I know Hannah is from Australia and received her training there, and I surmise with Park, it's a similar situation, but aren't they learning the French style by being company members?  What do you see as the impediment?  Why do you think of them as outsiders?  I am curious because I don't know the French school much at all and I'd like to better understand now that I've had the pleasure of seeing them yesterday. Thank you.

 

 

Hi, Karen, you pretty much got it all right, Park and O'Neil  aren't French trained so obviously their dancing is completely different to those of the POB educated girls, my problem with outsiders in the company is that it makes the ensamble lose its homogeneity.

 

Quote

Aren't they learning the French style by being company members?

 
They are part of the company and they see how everyone else dances but they're never going to dance like a French girl.

 

Quote

What do you see as the impediment?


They have a different training, its like having a non Vaganova graduate at the Mariinsky, you notice the difference right away, same here,  it's a different training, a different placement, a different technique, a different way of breathing on stage, the differences are too huge.

 

 

Quote

Why do you think of them as outsiders? 


Because they are and to be honest I also don't see understand what's the point of allowing outsiders to join the company when POB has the oldest and most illustrious academy on earth, if the company is going to do a casting  open to everybody then why keep the academy? What makes POB, RDB and Mariinsky special is the training of it's dancers and the homogeneity of their ensamble, without  those things then the companies are just a name, and in the case of POB, the mother of all companies, seeing how the French ballet tradition is being sacrificed thanks to the ignorance of the people in command, thanks to globalization and in order to be "politically correct" it's desperately  annoying, it's also a practical thing, I don't understand why a company with such an enormous academy has to bother doing an open casting to outsiders instead of allowing more POB graduates into 
the company, but that's another topic and I'm rambling. 

 

 

Edited by Gnossie

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2 hours ago, Gnossie said:

 

I actually wasn't able to hold some tears while reading your question, Jayne...

It would require to drop the awful pastiche of a method that is being passed down in the Academy now, It would require to go back to the REAL French ballet method of dancing, It would require a true balletic encyclopedia, a true classicist...in short someone with the capacities to run the school properly, to take over.

it would require a goverment that cared about it, but the ones in charge really don't care about who they appoint, that's the problem in France, everyone brags about "the tradition" when actually they don't know heck about the tradition, à plaurer :crying:

 

 

 

 

 

Hi, Karen, you pretty much got it all right, Park and O'Neil  aren't French trained so obviously their dancing is completely different to those of the POB educated girls, my problem with outsiders in the company is that it makes the ensamble lose its homogeneity.

 

 
They are part of the company and they see how everyone else dances but they're never going to dance like a French girl.

 


They have a different training, its like having a non Vaganova graduate at the Mariinsky, you notice the difference right away, same here,  it's a different training, a different placement, a different technique, a different way of breathing on stage, the differences are too huge.

 

 


Because they are and to be honest I also don't see understand what's the point of allowing outsiders to join the company when POB has the oldest and most illustrious academy on earth, if the company is going to do a casting  open to everybody then why keep the academy? What makes POB, RDB and Mariinsky special is the training of it's dancers and the homogeneity of their ensamble, without  those things then the companies are just a name, and in the case of POB, the mother of all companies, seeing how the French ballet tradition is being sacrificed thanks to the ignorance of the people in command, thanks to globalization and in order to be "politically correct" it's desperately  annoying, it's also a practical thing, I don't understand why a company with such an enormous academy has to bother doing an open casting to outsiders instead of allowing more POB graduates into 
the company, but that's another topic and I'm rambling. 

 

 

Thank you, Gnossie, for your answers to my questions and your opinions - I have some thoughts and will respond later. 

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I am fascinated by the contrast between Gnossie's reviews of Dorothee Gilbert's dancing qualitities (quite negative) and the other posters' reaction to her lead in Emeralds at LC (quite positive).  

 

Perhaps we are looking for such disparate qualities because we are exposed regularly to styles of dance that emphasize those qualities?  Would Gilbert be better served dancing for a neo-classical company? 

 

I thought the 20th century POB was much more of a hybrid, influenced by various Soviet satellite dancers (Lifar, Balanchine, Nureyev) and Americans and French-Americans (Tallchief, Verdy, Robbins, Forsythe, etc).  

Edited by Jayne

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For what it's worth, A. Macaulay's instagram account contains mini reviews of almost all of the Jewels performances.  He specifically notes that the women of the second Emeralds cast (that is, the Gilbert cast) were superior to the women of the first cast (Pujol cast).

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2 hours ago, abatt said:

For what it's worth, A. Macaulay's instagram account contains mini reviews of almost all of the Jewels performances.  He specifically notes that the women of the second Emeralds cast (that is, the Gilbert cast) were superior to the women of the first cast (Pujol cast).

I understand the reasons for allowing Pujol to lead the first New York performance over Gilbert. But it ended up being a blunder because the reviewers (and the New York ballet intelligentsia) were out in force for the first night. Unfortunately, the ensuing negative commentary and reviews set the tone for the remainder of the weekend.

 

3 hours ago, Jayne said:

I thought the 20th century POB was much more of a hybrid, influenced by various Soviet satellite dancers (Lifar, Balanchine, Nureyev) and Americans and French-Americans (Tallchief, Verdy, Robbins, Forsythe, etc).  

I would think that Lifar and Nureyev were much more central to the creative life of the company than Balanchine ever was. And, in any event, Robbins has always been more popular in Paris than Balanchine.

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11 hours ago, Gnossie said:

I also don't see understand what's the point of allowing outsiders to join the company when POB has the oldest and most illustrious academy on earth, if the company is going to do a casting  open to everybody then why keep the academy?

I don't understand why a company with such an enormous academy has to bother doing an open casting to outsiders instead of allowing more POB graduates into 
the company, but that's another topic and I'm rambling.

As ballet has declined in the French provinces, has there been a corresponding decline in the quality and quantity of French applicants to the school; thereby necessitating an increased reliance on "outsiders"?

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32 minutes ago, miliosr said:

I understand the reasons for allowing Pujol to lead the first New York performance over Gilbert. But it ended up being a blunder because the reviewers (and the New York ballet intelligentsia) were out in force for the first night. Unfortunately, the ensuing negative commentary and reviews set the tone for the remainder of the weekend.

 

I would think that Lifar and Nureyev were much more central to the creative life of the company than Balanchine ever was. And, in any event, Robbins has always been more popular in Paris than Balanchine.

 

Really? I have seen the POB dance Robbins and IMO they actually fare worse than Balanchine. It's as if they're speaking an entirely different ballet vocabulary. That deliberate casualness that was so important for Robbins eludes them.

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25 minutes ago, canbelto said:

 

Really? I have seen the POB dance Robbins and IMO they actually fare worse than Balanchine. It's as if they're speaking an entirely different ballet vocabulary. That deliberate casualness that was so important for Robbins eludes them.

From everything I've ever read, Parisian audiences have preferred Robbins to Balanchine. But our French correspondents on the ground can assess the comparative popularity of Robbins to Balanchine more accurately than I can.

 

Regarding how the POB dances Robbins relative to Balanchine, I can only say that most of the reviews I read of the POB's performances of Balanchine in 2015-16 (Millepied's last year) and 2016-17 (Dupont's first year but still Millepied's programming) were mixed to negative. So maybe the POB wasn't born to be dancing the works of either man on a regular basis?

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2 minutes ago, miliosr said:

From everything I've ever read, Parisian audiences have preferred Robbins to Balanchine. But our French correspondents on the ground can assess the comparative popularity of Robbins to Balanchine more accurately than I can.

 

Regarding how the POB dances Robbins relative to Balanchine, I can only say that most of the reviews I read of the POB's performances of Balanchine in 2015-16 (Millepied's last year) and 2016-17 (Dupont's first year but still Millepied's programming) were mixed to negative. So maybe the POB wasn't born to be dancing the works of either man on a regular basis?

 

There's a dedicated YT'er who uploads a lot of POB performances. Not going to point out the name but ... he just uploaded a Jewels from 2003 today. Definitely back then they were very acceptable in Balanchine.

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7 hours ago, miliosr said:

From everything I've ever read, Parisian audiences have preferred Robbins to Balanchine. But our French correspondents on the ground can assess the comparative popularity of Robbins to Balanchine more accurately than I can.

 

Regarding how the POB dances Robbins relative to Balanchine, I can only say that most of the reviews I read of the POB's performances of Balanchine in 2015-16 (Millepied's last year) and 2016-17 (Dupont's first year but still Millepied's programming) were mixed to negative. So maybe the POB wasn't born to be dancing the works of either man on a regular basis?

 

Difficult to say. What is Parisian audience? I am not very keen to both choreographers, but what was wrong the past years, in my opinion, is that we had too many. 

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On 7/21/2017 at 3:53 AM, Gnossie said:

 

 

Ganio is the company's superstar, he's the senior male Étoile of the company but he's not the oldest, this is because he was promoted when he was only 20. IMO he's the best classical dancer in the world, and the only one in the company that does represent the French tradition, he has a sensibility that makes his mentor Monsieur Legris look deadpans. 

This is one of his signature roles.

 

Pujol - as others have already posted, her Emeralds was recorded, she's a very beautiful lyrical dancer with the maturity you can expect of a dancer in the verge of retirement, her technique is poor now but not too poor.
This is HER signature role. 

 

Ould-Braham: the best female Étoile in the company, a dancer as lyrical as it gets and by this I mean she is THE Sylphide, imagine a Sylphide dressed in green and now you know how he performance will be like, she's amazing BUT she usually messes up, a wrong foot here and there, very frustrating but she's amazing.
This is one of her best roles.

 

Heymann: elevation and petit allegro are his thing but he remains a very classical prince, he's very very musical too. He's paired with Ould-Braham, they're the only true partnership in the company.
He was born to dance Emeralds. 

 

Gilbert: stiff, unmusical ugly dancer, I'm so sorry for the ones seeing her, she does NOT represent the French tradition AT ALL. She is debuting in the role, once again: I'm SO sorry for y'all. 

 

Marchand: recently promoted thanks to a pretty face, he's elegant and has presence but his technique is mediocre to say the least, has no artistry and what disturbs me the most: he has the upper body of a swimmer, I can't I can't and I can't, basically he's the male version of Gilbert but without being ugly. Doesn't represent the French tradition at all neither. Also debuting in the role.

 

Louvet and Baulac: same as Marchand but in Louvet's case he doesn't have a pretty face to distract the audience, his hypertextension is worrying to say the least. Baulac is as pretty as it gets and more mediocre than Copeland. These two don't represent the French tradition either. They are debuting in Emeralds.


Park and O'Neil are outsiders. I won't say more about those two, I don't wanna have a stroke.

 

Alu: the company's only born show man, should be a principal but never will be, but anyway he's not dancing in NYC because he's injured. Fabien Revillion is his replacement in the pdt, he's ok.

 

Moreau: OK dancer, pretty to look at,  that's about it.
Colasante: mediocre dancer.

 

In conclusion: The 23 July performace is the one to attend, it has  Ganio/Pujol - Ould-Braham/Heymann in Emeralds and Krysanova/LOPATIN in rubies!!! 

 

Your comments on those POB dancers are INSANELY interesting to read! I appreciate your insights deeply, and agree with around 70% of your points. Thank you so much!

 

If you are still following the thread, I'd be very grateful if you care to comment on any of the "big names" below. 

 

Sylvie Guillem

Isabelle Guérin

Laurent Hilaire

Manuel Legris

Élisabeth Platel

Charles Jude

Agnès Letestu

José Martinez

Monique Loudières

Aurélie Dupont

Nicolas Le Riche

Isabelle Ciaravola

Marie-Agnès Gillot

Edited by Rosalie

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On 24/7/2017 at 0:35 PM, Jayne said:

I thought the 20th century POB was much more of a hybrid, influenced by various Soviet satellite dancers (Lifar, Balanchine, Nureyev) and Americans and French-Americans (Tallchief, Verdy, Robbins, Forsythe, etc).  

 

Balanchine???? Tallchief who? Verdy????Robbins??? Forsythe??? LOL NO


Lifar and Nureyev only (Nureyev being performed once a year now and Lifar, well, aparently the ony work by Lifar known by the company's managment for the last 20 years is Suite en Blanc, that is performed only in galas, but Lifar is almost long lost.)

 

On 25/7/2017 at 1:21 AM, silvermash said:

Difficult to say. What is Parisian audience? I am not very keen to both choreographers, but what was wrong the past years, in my opinion, is that we had too many. 

AMEN 

 

But in general yes, Paris in more keen to Robbins hehe

 

 

On 24/7/2017 at 0:35 PM, Jayne said:

Would Gilbert be better served dancing for a neo-classical company? 

Yes.

 

On 24/7/2017 at 4:32 PM, miliosr said:

As ballet has declined in the French provinces, has there been a corresponding decline in the quality and quantity of French applicants to the school; thereby necessitating an increased reliance on "outsiders"?

 

It's not a matter of quantity, That audiences continue to come to the ballet at all, under circumstances of near-zero choreographic excitement, is proof nonetheless of the remarkable commitment of the French crowd, no other crowd would cope with the rubbish programming of the Opera for the last 10,20,30,70.....95 years........ people LOVE classical ballet in France, the DECLINE is in the (lack of) quality of training, but the amount of applicants is still very high altought if I had children I would be nervous because since most provincial companies have become modern dance companies. there aren't as much opportunities for dancers so a kid must be top graduate to have a chance to be seen by the Opera's managment and maybe MAYBE be oferred a contract, if that doesnt happen, well good luck, if the graduate wants to dance contemporary there are plenty of choices but if it is a classicist there are barely any options, where to go? Bordeaux? a moribund company where the top jobs are always given to outsiders (and not good ones which is even sadder) Toulouse? where is the same case as in Bordeaux? and please let's not talk about Marseille....

 

 

The entire system is infected. 

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