Underrated Movies

[papeetepatrick]

She was one of the few people to ever get along with Marlon Brando, for instance.

He was surely one of the few people ever to get along with her as well, as she was notoriously difficult.

Speaking of underrated movies, see "Waterloo Bridge" because it was Leigh's favorite film. And contains some of her best acting. It's a weepie in the best sense of the word, although Robert Taylor is very very wooden, as was his wont.

I ended up watching this and her 'Anna Karenina' as well, after all. My friend kept asking me to fast-forward this one, and claimed she must be confusing it with one of her other films(he didn't stay long enough to see that she throws herself in front of a Red Cross ambulance in this one, as opposed to a train in the second, with the same vacuous emotion in either case). I'm afraid I couldn't stand it either, but thought 'Anna Karenina' was far worse, because it doesn't evoke any of the grandness of either the book or the Clarence Brown film with Garbo. That one is photographed with lots of full frames of figures and faces close-up, so that everything looks very vertical, glittering and aristocratic. Although by Duvivier, one of the great French directors, along with Renoir and Carne (of that period), this 'Anna' is, I find, extremely poor, and you have a hard time remembering that it's a matter of counts and baronesses. The Anna Karenina of Vivien Leigh is more like Emma Bovary, an ordinary middle-class woman, and she flounces around like Scarlett all the time, petulant and spoiled. It's nearly impossible to even follow the story in this one, which is barely distinguishable from the soapers of Joan Crawford and Lana Turner, but not as good: Because those were the real thing--especially things like 'A Life of Her Own', the kind of thing Turner did well, taking it seriously because naturally at home in pulp and the best of what were then called 'women's movies'. The script of the Duvivier film follows the Garbo film very closely, beyond that there is no resemblance that I can see, and Leigh often reminds me of Susan Hayward, although Hayward was not delusional enough to imagine that she could do things she was unsuited for. It never even seems Russian in the ball scenes or in any of the music, I have no idea if it was made into a miniature to suit Leigh's style, but it's all small-scale by comparison (or even not by comparison) to the Garbo film (the talkie one, that is--the silent one ends happily, I believe, and she is supposed to have hated it.) I thought Robert Taylor perfectly adequate in WB, and thought Kieron Moore better in the Duvivier than most do, but the only real highlights were Richardson and Sally Ann Howes.

Speaking of Susan Hayward, definitely underrated is 'I Can Get It For You Wholesale', with Susan totally convincing as someone who really could go into one of those cutthroat Garment District holes and butch it out with the best (and worst) of them--and not just as an actress. Dan Dailey is very good as is the rest of the cast, and the location photography is beautiful 50s-New York stuff. This has never even been put on video, I had to get it off eBay from someone who had taped it, and had to pay $30 for it.

[canbelto]

He was surely one of the few people ever to get along with her as well, as she was notoriously difficult.

No offense but I don't know why you think this is so. Vivien Leigh suffered from terrible bouts of depression. She was bipolar, and had tuberculosis. But she had many friends who refused to ever say a bad word about her, including both of her ex-husbands and her colleagues. Her stepson loved her very much, and has said that she was more supportive of him when he came out of the closet than his father.

[papeetepatrick]

No offense but I don't know why you think this is so. Vivien Leigh suffered from terrible bouts of depression. She was bipolar, and had tuberculosis. But she had many friends who refused to ever say a bad word about her, including both of her ex-husbands and her colleagues. Her stepson loved her very much, and has said that she was more supportive of him when he came out of the closet than his father.

It is, quite simply, because she did have a reputation for being difficult. If that is because of illness, that does not make it less difficult for other people. I didn't mean she was a 'bad person', but that she was difficult. So what? Katharine Hepburn was difficult too, Deborah Kerr wasn't.

[cubanmiamiboy]

He was surely one of the few people ever to get along with her as well, as she was notoriously difficult.

No offense but I don't know why you think this is so. Vivien Leigh suffered from terrible bouts of depression. She was bipolar, and had tuberculosis. But she had many friends who refused to ever say a bad word about her, including both of her ex-husbands and her colleagues. Her stepson loved her very much, and has said that she was more supportive of him when he came out of the closet than his father.

Kind of , but yesterday while in class, we were showed a DVD released for medical faculty about ECT-(Electro Convulsive Therapy)-, with its pros and cons. In one of the segments, it showed some footage of Leigh, as one of the examples of expected outcomes from it-(She had an steady ECT treatment)-.and on the contrary, how the same treatment had been detrimental for Gene Tierney-(they showed footage of her also). It was very...contrasting.

[FauxPas]

I am going to throw in a film that is often thought of as campy Hollywood soap opera but is really a searing portrait of a marriage and a woman trying to play a role she isn't emotionally suited for: "Harriet Craig" (1950) with Joan Crawford and Wendell Corey. It's based on a play called "Craig's Wife" about a selfish woman more in love with her home and possessions than her husband. There was an earlier version with Rosalind Russell that I am DVR-ing this week.

The Crawford movie is a fascinating domestic tragedy that is about a control freak who loves the house and possessions because she can arrange and manipulate them completely according to her needs. She tries the same with her husband until she goes way too far. Crawford is both repellent and in the final scene really heartbreaking as you realize that in her sick, selfish way, she really did love her husband in her fashion. The film has camp value because of Crawford and the "Mommie Dearest" image (No more wire hangers, ever!!!, etc.). But the movie isn't campy at all and the acting is first-rate and Crawford has never been better. I would call it a suburban domestic film noir. TCM is showing it in September.

For those that are interested: "Harriet Craig" is scheduled to be shown on TCM on Sunday morning September 7th at 6:30 a.m.

[dirac]

Thanks for the tip, FauxPas. I've never seen it.

He was surely one of the few people ever to get along with her as well, as she was notoriously difficult.

No offense but I don't know why you think this is so. Vivien Leigh suffered from terrible bouts of depression. She was bipolar, and had tuberculosis. But she had many friends who refused to ever say a bad word about her, including both of her ex-husbands and her colleagues. Her stepson loved her very much, and has said that she was more supportive of him when he came out of the closet than his father.

It is, quite simply, because she did have a reputation for being difficult. If that is because of illness, that does not make it less difficult for other people. I didn't mean she was a 'bad person', but that she was difficult.

Leigh was not ‘difficult’ in the sense that ‘difficult’ means temperamental, unprofessional, or inconsiderate of colleagues. Elia Kazan praised her for her hard work and dedication. In her youth she was a trifle spoiled as great beauties sometimes are, and late in her career her manic episodes did sometimes affect her offstage behavior but I’m not sure how you could call that being ‘difficult.’ Kenneth More didn’t care for her and the feeling was mutual, but that’s showbiz.

She sometimes clashed with David O. Selznick during the making of Gone with the Wind, but it was in the interests of being true to her character and the book. There was also a dispute with Selznick about her contractual obligations to him. She had a wide circle of friends and colleagues, as canbelto notes, and as a person (as opposed to an artist) it was sometimes noted that she was more cultivated, and, well, interesting than Olivier.

She was wonderful in ‘Waterloo Bridge.’ The ‘Anna Karenina’ is not especially good but she is fine in her scenes with Ralph Richardson and obviously understands the part very well. She’s not maternal, unfortunately. Kieron Moore is indeed better than generally stated.

[dirac]

In one of the segments, it showed some footage of Leigh, as one of the examples of expected outcomes from it-(She had an steady ECT treatment)-.and on the contrary, how the same treatment had been detrimental for Gene Tierney-(they showed footage of her also). It was very...contrasting.

That’s interesting, cubanmiamiboy. ECT does seem to have worked for Leigh, to an extent, although Olivier said in his autobiography that after her first round of ECT she was better when she returned home, but not the same person he had known.

Yes, we are wandering a bit off topic, I guess. I don't know if you'd call it underrated, but I've always been fond of The Ghost and Mrs. Muir with Tierney and Rex Harrison.

[Helene]

He was surely one of the few people ever to get along with her as well, as she was notoriously difficult.

No offense but I don't know why you think this is so. Vivien Leigh suffered from terrible bouts of depression.

If you read Tchinarova Finch's memoir, you will find a vivid and frightening description that both describes her behavior having bipolar disorder and why she could be so difficult. Given the nature of her illness, it's not surprising that different people had different experiences of her, depending on her condition at the time.

[canbelto]

I was on TCM the other day and saw "Pat and Mike." It was to my surprise delightful, and for once the banter between Hepburn and Tracy seems real and sweet. One of their best onscreen joint efforts, I'd say.

Now getting back on the "difficult" train, I'd say that Spencer Tracy would be my definition of "difficult." This was a man prone to terrifying drinking binges, nasty comments, and temper tantrums. Towards the twilight of his career only someone with the patience of Job aka as Katharine Hepburn was willing to take him in, prop up his career, so to speak.

[dirac]

If you read Tchinarova Finch's memoir, you will find a vivid and frightening description that both describes her behavior having bipolar disorder and why she could be so difficult. Given the nature of her illness, it's not surprising that different people had different experiences of her, depending on her condition at the time.

Generally when an actor is described as difficult it's because they are considered unusually demanding or any of the other uncomplimentary adjectives I used previously. Mental illness generally doesn't come under that umbrella, because it's a different category of behavior. I think that's the point canbelto was making originally.

[dirac]

I was on TCM the other day and saw "Pat and Mike." It was to my surprise delightful, and for once the banter between Hepburn and Tracy seems real and sweet. One of their best onscreen joint efforts, I'd say.

Now getting back on the "difficult" train, I'd say that Spencer Tracy would be my definition of "difficult." This was a man prone to terrifying drinking binges, nasty comments, and temper tantrums. Towards the twilight of his career only someone with the patience of Job aka as Katharine Hepburn was willing to take him in, prop up his career, so to speak.

Exactly. Only Hepburn and Stanley Kramer seem to have been able to deal with him. Tracy was alcoholic, but not mentally ill.

I love Pat and Mike. It's not as good as Adam's Rib, but Tracy is unusually charming in it. There's also a nice switcheroo in that he is usually cast as the manly common fellow putting the high-strung Hepburn in her place, and in Pat and Mike he's supporting her and fighting for her, not putting her down. Nice movie.

[papeetepatrick]

The ‘Anna Karenina’ is not especially good but she is fine in her scenes with Ralph Richardson and obviously understands the part very well. She’s not maternal, unfortunately.

It is not at all obvious that she understands the part very well, since she conveys none of it in her acting (which is supposed to be where she'd prove this understanding, given that she was not a literary scholar), only a conventional middle-class woman, without even quite the sensibility of a bluestocking. Of course, the maternal is absent as noted, even though she had had a child and Garbo hadn't.

Many actors are 'difficult', probably most. I don't think it is even an important issue. In any case, many people consider alcoholism a mental illness, it's obviously not purely physical. What some of these discussions are about is simply that people have different tastes in films, and it is not as defined in how you can judge it as are the classical arts like ballet and opera, which cannot be done by amateurs. Many of the greatest movie stars had no 'training' in the sense of years and years of hard, repetitive work. Gary Cooper for one, Marlene Dietrich for another, Robert Mitchum and Clark Gable two more, and I don't even think Claudette Colbert took all that many acting classes, Ava Gardner, etc.... Davis and Garbo did have some real formal training. Some of them just started working on stage and in films in bit parts, or were born into theater or vaudeville families, or just learned how to do it as 'on-the-job training'. Things have changed, but the early years, including the silents with great actresses like Lillian Gish were not working in the academies toward these goals the way they are now. And some of the greatest stage stars were self-taught, Edith Evans being the best possible example.

[papeetepatrick]

in ‘Waterloo Bridge.’

I guess Leigh really is good in this, but that I had expected to like the film far more than I did. Various kinds of period things I think I'm going to like sometimes end up seeming much less than I expect, like 'They Drive by Night', with Ida Lupino's weird part (which impressed enough to get her a studio contract, although Ann Sheridan does the better acting, IMO), and 'The Spiral Staircase', which seem so rudimentary after Fritz Lang pictures, so tightly and rigorously plotted, of the same period (like 'You and Me', 'You only Live Once', 'The Return of Frank James', 'Hangmen Also Die', and 'Fury', which is even earlier--some of these are likely underrated.) But then there'll be some extremely dated things I'm very moved by, no matter how corny, like 'Sergeant York', for which Coop won one of his Oscars. 'Love Affair', with Boyer and Dunne, is very dated as well, and I think it's wonderful. That's not underrated, I think, though, and was nominated for major Oscars. At any rate, it's light-years better than the remake with Deborah Kerr and Cary Grant, even though they're themselves troupers and do the best they can with pulp that's no longer of any use.

[dirac]

In any case, many people consider alcoholism a mental illness, it's obviously not purely physical.

We were just using Tracy as an example. Alcoholism can in some circumstances be a symptom of underlying medical illness and it has chemical effects on the brain, but it’s not a mental illness in the sense that a bipolar disorder or schizophrenia is. Tracy seems to have been a handful even when he was perfectly sober.