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I'm surprised no one has said AMERICAN BEAUTY. (Let's see what kind of flack I get for this.) Why is Kevin Spacey considered a god? In the majority of his movies except for The Usual Suspects, he always seems to play the montone lead. I never see much of anything else from him. Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe I don't understand him or where he is coming from.

As for the movie, can we say teenage angst? I wonder if it would have done so well if not for the star power it had.

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Good choice, stinger784. I’d forgotten all about “American Beauty” to tell you the truth.

I think it would have been unwise of Hepburn to try her own singing in "My Fair Lady." She has a pleasant enough voice, but that score was composed for a real singer.

Bette Davis - should have won for "Of Human Bondage," so they gave her an Oscar in "Dark Victory." Davis being Davis she showed up to the Oscars in a housedress.

Davis won her Oops Oscar for “Dangerous” the year after Of Human Bondage. IMO, she was better in “Dark Victory” -- maybe Davis' very best performance, a large statement --than Leigh was in “GWTW,” although I understand why Leigh won. Davis could also have won in 1940 for “The Letter,” etc., etc. She really had no rival in those years. (Also, I wouldn't call it a housedress exactly, Davis just wasn’t dressed to the nines.)

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Another sacrilege coming up here:-

I just cant stand anything of Bergman's work. Ingmar, I mean, not Ingrid. Yet, I can understand the dialog and dont need any subtitles. Dont know what it is, I just dont get them - characters always seem mean and lacking in generosity, everybody is sullen and looking like they are at death's door. Sorry, just cant see the greatness there, but if you just whisper something like that, you run the risk of being decapitated in Sweden.

Then we had something called "Songs from the second floor" possibly von Trier. I lasted 15 minutes, no loss of money though, it was on TV.

Then we had "Gilbert Grape" - no comments at all here.

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Another sacrilege coming up here:-

I just cant stand anything of Bergman's work. Ingmar, I mean, not Ingrid. Yet, I can understand the dialog and dont need any subtitles. Dont know what it is, I just dont get them - characters always seem mean and lacking in generosity, everybody is sullen and looking like they are at death's door. Sorry, just cant see the greatness there, but if you just whisper something like that, you run the risk of being decapitated in Sweden.

Pamela, I'm going straight to hell with you! I can't stand Bergman films either. The symbolism is always about as subtle as a chainsaw. Gifted directors make us care about their characters, even if they are monstrous. (An example: think of how much we care about Travis Bickle in Taxi Driver, or Michael Corleone in Godfather.) I never care about any of Bergman's characters. They are usually such a miserable lot I feel like saying, "Cmon, just slit your wrists, or blow your brains out. Get it over with."

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Why is Kevin Spacey considered a god? In the majority of his movies except for The Usual Suspects, he always seems to play the montone lead. I never see much of anything else from him. Maybe I'm missing something. Maybe I don't understand him or where he is coming from.

I would have thought the same. However, Spacey now Artistic Director of the Old Vic in London and has just put on (and taken the title role) in Richard II. (Not the more obvious choice, Richard III.) Apparently he reveals depths, as well as a range, previously unsuspected.

The Times Literary Supplement said of his performance --

QUOTE: "... the chief aim of the production was surely to show that Kevin Spacey, best known hitherto as an excellent American film actor, can also perform Shakespeare live in a British theater. In this it succeeds magnificently. ... Spacey fullyl demonstrates his ability to 'do Shakespeare." But igven the operful, larger and louder-than-life quality of his Richard II, I think he might do Marlowe even better. I wuld love to see his Tamburlaine or Faustus."

Michael Billington, reviewing the production for The Guardian, comments --

QUOTE: "It is in the great central scenes of Richard's return to England after the Irish wars that Spacey really comes into his own. Often Richard's speeches are treated as virtuoso arias of grief. Instead Spacey, having sentimentally kissed the English soil, flies into impotent rages at the discovery of Bolingbroke's treachery. "Am I not king?" he barks as if to compensate for his collapsing power. By not openly begging for our pity, Spacey genuinely earns our compassion.

QUOTE: "This is not your traditional Richard. Even in the famous deposition scene Spacey speaks "like a frantic man" exactly as the text prescribes. Used to the comfortable accoutrements of power, he seems sadly empty and desolate without them. And when he says "I have no name", you realise this is a Richard who has no real identity when divorced from office. The result is a fascinating performance that makes you long to see Spacey's Iago, Richard III and Hamlet."

Richard II is one of the most interesting of the history plays, rarely produced in the US. I haven't seen it here in many decades since the Royal Shakespeare brought it to NY (John Neville?). Reviews like that make me wish that actors like Spacey didn't have to travel across the Atlantic to find opportunities like this.

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Bergman is one of the great artists of the previous century, someone who enriched an art form by addressing himself to it. If he’s not your cup of tea, that’s perfectly legitimate and it’s true for many people, but his ranking as an artist isn’t something this observer is going to argue about. Sorry, folks. :unsure:

I can’t address the quality of his stage work, but Kevin Spacey is a gifted and intelligent performer who’s by nature a supporting actor, at his best in secondary roles with limited exposure (this is not an insult, often as not the secondary roles are more interesting than a bland lead), but not meant to carry a picture on his own. No reason why he shouldn’t try, of course, and win Oscars doing it, but I still don't think he's at his best. I like his ensemble work (LA Confidential, The Usual Suspects), IMO. Again, in the theatre in the right role, it could be a completely different situation. Nice to hear his performance is so well received -- let's hope we get a look here in the States some time....

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I'm still thinking about Spacey. There's a tie-in to a film which, if not actually "over-rated," was distinctly wierd, Al Pacino's "Looking for Richard."

I gather this was an attempt to document a projected film of Richard (Shakespeare's) which never got beyond pre-production, cast readings, and some rehearsal. Spacey was Buckingham, a role which perfectly suits dirac's description of his strengths (and limitations). And he looks like he would have produced a very good Buckingham indeed.

At the time, I remember thinking, "Spacey could never do Richard." Little did I think of that other, and quite different, Richard in the Shakespeare canon.

Pacino's take on RIII was bizarre, a juicy throw-back to 19th century melodrama or possibly just as far back as "The Godfather."

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-Any Tom Cruise film produced by Tom Cruise with Tom Cruise playing Tom Cruise.

-Any Keanu Reeves film with Keanu Reeves playing Keanu Reeves.

-Any Colin Farrell film with Colin Farrell playing Colin Farrell.

-Any film written, directed by or graced with a cameo appearance of Quentin Tarantino.

-Any film directed by those "blockbuster sequel kings," Brett Ratner & Barry Sonnenfeld.

-The collected works of Michael Moore: They belabor the point with a large dose of gratuitousness.

-"Bram Stoker's Dracula" with Gary Oldman & Winona Ryder: The film played like an overlong Monty Python skit with fake English accents.

-"Last Tango in Paris"

-The Star Wars Prequels, Episodes 1-3

-"The Wizard of Oz"

-"Titanic"

-"Erin Brockovich"

-"Mr. & Mrs. Smith"

-"Flightplan" :mellow:: I would've been happy to have watched 2+ hrs. of Travelocity commercials than go through that again.

I can think of others but could never list them all. That's why I love my DVD player and the Inde Film Channel.

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Dirac, you are of course right. In my previous post about Bergman, I limited myself to commenting his movies, and I still maintain that I do not like them.

But, very many years ago, early seventies, maybe, Bergman directed "The magic flute" and that was really something. I have only seen it on TV, but it is wonderful. It would be very far from me to deny the genius of Bergman, but his morose movies are just not to my personal taste, whereas "The magic flute" was entirely to my taste and I enjoyed it immensely.

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Thank you for your list, cygnet (although bear in mind we’re looking for overrated items, and I’m not sure that some of the items on your list qualify. Successful, yes, profitable, yes, but artistically overrated, no :) ).

Flightplan" : I would've been happy to have watched 2+ hrs. of Travelocity commercials than go through that again.

Yes, but it had Jodie (and another favorite of mine, Peter Sarsgaard) and sometimes a fan’s gotta do what a fan’s gotta do, even if it means paying to see Panic Room.

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Reviving this thread: Juno. It was cute and quirky but the accolades bestowed upon it were just weird.

Hi. Thanks for bringing this thread back. Well, Juno was last year's cute 'n' quirky comedy, and quite a decent example of the type, -- it improved as it went along, although I too had some trouble figuring out what the fuss was about. But it was a nice break from some of the other movies of the season, which quality aside tended to be heavy going.

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-"Last Tango in Paris"

It hasn't stood up so well, although Brando is still amazing. But it was a great movie of its moment.

Disagree, think it's still a masterpiece and in no way a period piece.

Finally had time to read the whole thread. This is closest to this year's CCNY Kirov thread in posters pulling all the stops out.

The ones I most disagree with being called overrated are 'Citizen Kane', 'Psycho','History of Violence', 'Children of Paradise', and 'Last Tango'. I think they are all as brilliant as their reputations, and also think most Bergman is. On the other hand, I hate all Woody Allen, including 'Annie Hall'. Have I achieved the hatchet-job spirit yet? :blushing:

I don't think 'the Sound of Music' was ever rated especially highly in an artistic and critical sense. It was very popular and I have never really liked it, even though I think it is well-made.

Overrated for me is the Nicole Kidman 'Moulin Rouge', although I don't like her in anything very much. I think the film is garbage, even seen alone, but especially compared to the divine piece with Zsa Zsa like a heavenly phantom of Parisian volupte and Jose Ferrer. Unlike Cygnet, I do like Tom Cruise playing Tom Cruise, as in 'Magnolia' and 'Eyes Wide Shut' (in which he is light-years beyond his then-wife), but think both of those movies are overrated if they were highly rated (I don't know if they were.) Cruise is popularly disliked these days, but he's dazzlingly brilliant when he's good, much more of a natural movie star than his ex-wife, whom I find ordinary.

'Boys Don't Cry' is godawful beyond belief, the worst highly-touted movie of the 00's, and repulsive in every artistic sense. If one watches the documentary 'The Story of Brandon Teena', you get the real story and that's where it should have been left. This cheesey story full of uniformly unsympathetic characters contains not a single scene worth putting into a piece of would-be fictional art.

Recently, 'Eastern Promises' proves to be overrated, and Viggo thoroughly ordinary in it. It is like a toney version of 'The Sopranos', and might have been more than just a good film (which it is), if it didn't follow the infinitely superior

'A History of Violence'.

Would definitely say I think all Quentin Tarantino is overrated, especially 'Kill Bill'.

We all love to do our 'petit point on Kleenex.' One of America's favourite pastimes.

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More overrated movies:

Saving Private Ryan and Schindler's List

I hurt the Holocaust and appreciate the Greatest Generation as much as the next Jew, but I don't turn my personal feelings into extraodinarily long and expensive ego-trips.

The Indiana Jones trilogy, on the other hand, is one of the best examples of superior pop culture ever made. I'm looking forward to Indiana Jones & the Crystal Skull.

I totally agree with papeetepatrick with respect to Tom Cruise. It is fascinating to watch Tom Cruise analyse himself and his public persona via movies. Besides Magnolia and Eyes Wide Shut, he did it superbly in Minority Report (another Spielberg movie).

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We all love to do our 'petit point on Kleenex.' One of America's favourite pastimes.
What a GREAT phrase for the transitory nature of so much that we over-analyze and deconstruct. :blushing:

"Petit point on Kleenex" might be an epigraph for several cultural journals of the day. And a motto for more than a few pop critics.

Thanks, papeetepatrick!

Having said that, I very much agree with GWTW on the Indiana Jones cycle. The people involved had a secure knowledge of the limits -- and the value -- of the genre. This -- paradoxically -- allows these well-made and witty films to be amazingly good.

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"Petit point on Kleenex" might be an epigraph for several cultural journals of the day. And a motto for more than a few pop critics.

Thanks, papeetepatrick!

Thanks so much, bart, but I stole that from Joan Didion :blushing: , who was specifically talking about movie reviewers and how they didn't know much of what they are talking about half the time. I think I'm quick enough to put it here right after you noted it, and I ought to stop thinking some of these things are household phrases!

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'Boys Don't Cry' is godawful beyond belief, the worst highly-touted movie of the 00's, and repulsive in every artistic sense. If one watches the documentary 'The Story of Brandon Teena', you get the real story and that's where it should have been left. This cheesey story full of uniformly unsympathetic characters contains not a single scene worth putting into a piece of would-be fictional art.

Boys Don’t Cry contains two superb performances from Hilary Swank and Peter Sarsgaard, a very good one from Chloe Sevigny, and the director, Kimberly Peirce, did a fine job. I did not agree with the overall interpretation of the story – presenting the protagonist as a sort of unconventional freethinker instead of a sad case who needed help and didn’t get it – but it’s a good picture. I’m not sure what you mean by the characters not being ‘sympathetic.’ They’re not the most appealing bunch of kids, obviously, but even the rapist/killers are recognizably human and not made out to be monstrous, although they’re guilty of monstrous acts. I believe the release date was 1999, if you’ll pardon the pedantry.

I hurt the Holocaust and appreciate the Greatest Generation as much as the next Jew, but I don't turn my personal feelings into extraodinarily long and expensive ego-trips.

I don’t have much use for Saving Private Ryan either, but Schindler’s List, for all its well-rehearsed failings, is a fine film and didn’t strike me as any kind of ego-trip. I was less than thrilled with it on its first run, but it’s a movie worth revisiting. Did you really think it was too long? It bogs down a bit at the end but I certainly wasn’t sneaking peeks at my watch.

Cruise is popularly disliked these days, but he's dazzlingly brilliant when he's good, much more of a natural movie star than his ex-wife, whom I find ordinary.

Cruise is a good actor within a (very) narrow range and he is a genuine star. I would make no further claims for him. Nicole Kidman (I assume you're not referring to Mimi Rogers :blushing:) doesn’t have his level of star quality and she’s not a particularly warm or sympathetic performer, but she can act him off the screen without difficulty.

I don't recall that 'Eyes Wide Shut' was treated with any great respect apart from its connection with Kubrick, who had just died when it was released.

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QUOTE

I hurt the Holocaust and appreciate the Greatest Generation as much as the next Jew, but I don't turn my personal feelings into extraodinarily long and expensive ego-trips.

I don’t have much use for Saving Private Ryan either, but Schindler’s List, for all its well-rehearsed failings, is a fine film and didn’t strike me as any kind of ego-trip. I was less than thrilled with it on its first run, but it’s a movie worth revisiting. Did you really think it was too long? It bogs down a bit at the end but I certainly wasn’t sneaking peeks at my watch.

Well, I wasn't bored or falling asleep because I don't think Spielberg knows how to make a boring movie, but I felt it was an unnecessary movie. Spielberg has done a tremendous lot of work in documenting Holocaust survivors' stories, and from my point of view, Schindler's List was Spielberg's way of bringing attention to his philanthropy and to get an Oscar.

Holocaust movies in general are very difficult to get right. It's a case of reality being crazier than fiction, especially as the reality took place in the heart of Western civilization and the personal lives of many members of the Hollywood movie industry were deeply affected. One of the few movies that get the tone right IMO is "The Great Dictator".

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