Superhuman speed in old tapes

[chrisk217]

I was watching old ballet performances with a friend and among them was an early 50s "Flames of Paris" pdd with Chaboukiani.

The speed of both Chaboukiani and his partner (to a lesser degree) seemed superhuman (although his very old technique left a lot to be desired).

At first I though maybe this kind of speed was normal back then and got lost as the emphasis moved on more polished technique. But my friend, who has a healthy dose of cynicism, thinks that the original tape was sped up (let's say 10%).

We watched it again and again, trying to find clues in the background (how the banners wave, how the spectators move etc) but we have not come to any definite conclusion. If it was sped up, the job was done very craftily, the large crowd around them does not move abruptly.

Does anyone know if this was sped up? Were the performers of that era really that quick?

I remember the same kind of machine gun speed in parts of a Black Swan pdd excerpt with Dudinskaya (on another DVD).

[Hans]

Did they have the technology to do that in the 50's? I know that on very old videos (like from the 1920's) the movements appear faster than they really were, but I don't think that occurred as late as the 50's.

People have suspected certain parts of NYCB's Nutcracker video to have been sped up since it came out.

[Mme. Hermine]

however in the case of silent films, it wasn't that the films were fast, it's that was what happened when silent (filmed at 18 frames per second) film was projected at a sound speed (24 frames per second). the original audiences would have seen them at normal speed. i think some of the dancers were just very fast. i saw the same thing in a film of raisa struchkova in rehearsal for don quixote years ago, the chaines were unbelievable, but the rest of the film was at a normal speed, so i think she just did fast chaines.

[Alexandra]

This wasn't a silent film, though, and there are other, earlier, examples from Soviet TV of Chabukiani that are much faster. Yes, they turned that fast. I asked the same question when I started watching ballet in the mid 1970s -- about Plisetskaya -- and was assured by everyone I asked (puzzled that I would ask) that no, that was the accurate speed.

Chabukiani is in his mid-40s in "Flames of Paris," too, and allowances have to be made for his technique. Also he was a heroic dancer, not a lyric -- not a classical stylist. THAT has changed. They didn't care if they landed in position, they cared about other things -- expressiveness being primary.

[chrisk217]

Just one more note: I have watched the pdd with the DVD player slowed down at 75% of the normal speed and it appears quite slow. The exception to this is Chaboukiani's last manege which appears almost normal when played at 75% of the speed! If the DVD player could play at 80%, I believe that the manege would appear perfectly normal. Which means that Chaboukiani (or the video, but probably Chaboukiani) is about 25% faster than what we are used to seeing.

[Alexandra]

There's a film of him in 1940 (when he's 30) in La Bayadere with the same manege -- it was his specialty -- and he's much faster. It's on one of those collections -- The Glorious Russian Tradition -- but I can't remember whether it's Volume I or Volume II. (Both are worth having!)

[Mme. Hermine]

there's a fille mal gardee pas de deux on one of those collections too, with ninel kurgapkina, can't remember her partner, but her variation is done at some incredibly fast clip, just amazing.

[Jack Reed]

Regarding the question of speeding up film and tape, can that be done without raising the pitch of the music? I'd think that'd be a clear sign that some speeding up had been done, except in the obvious case of silent clips, for example the Dark Red Roses clip in the two-hour Balanchine documentary originally shown on PBS. This looks pretty obviously speeded up, as silent film often was "to reduce flicker" (never mind movement accuracy, right?).

[Mme. Hermine]

Dark Red Roses was a sound film, one of the first feature-length, if not the first, sound films made in England. I found this summary for it:

DARK RED ROSES (1928/British Sound Film) 67mins. BW. UK.

Credits: Dir: Sinclair Hall; Sc: Leslie Howard Gordon & Harcourt Templeman; Ph: A. Viragh; Des: Oscar Werndorff. From a story by Stacy Aumonier.

Cast: Stewart Rome, Francis Doble, Hugh Eden, Kate Cutler, Una O'Conner, Anton Dolin, Lydia Lopokova, Sydney Morgan, Jill Clayton, Jack Clayton, Georges Balanchine.

A young pianist falls in love with Laura, (Doble), the wife of sculptor David Cordew, (Rome), who jealously chops of the pianist's hands.

Also Cecil Adams (of The Straight Dope) has the following essay on film speed:

http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a4_067.html

[Mel Johnson]

Remember, there is that amazing thing called "post-production", when all sorts of things happen to what was filmed or taped, and then the sound can be adjusted to it, by even the simple expedient of having a recording session with an orchestra, with the conductor just following the dancing speed. They used to do this with cartoons in the 1930s.

I remember Struchkova; she could go like a bat out of hell! One of the most striking of the dancers who opened the West to the Bolshoi.

[Marga]

ps. I remember the same kind of machine gun speed in parts of a Black Swan pdd excerpt with Dudinskaya (on another DVD).

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

When I first saw Dudinskaja as the Black Swan on that tape, I mentioned the incredible speed to my daughter's ballet teacher, a graduate of the Vaganova Academy. She told me that Dudinskaja's turns were for real, that she was a dizzyingly fast turner.

[richard53dog]

I remember Struchkova; she could go like a bat out of hell!  One of the most striking of the dancers who opened the West to the Bolshoi.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Ha, ha, me ,too!

She was often on the Bolshoi tours that I saw in the 70s. They were mostly mixed bills and Struchkova always would come out and crank out fouettees like crazy, very fast, very secure.

It was only much later when I saw some clips of her dancing that I saw the charming, lyrical quality she also had

Richard

Edited August 15, 2005 by richard53dog

[MinkusPugni]

The older the tape, the less chance it has of being the real time. Look at movies from the thirties and you'll see they all move very quickly. It isn't done purposely, that's just how it is.

[Mme. Hermine]

I think that isn't quite correct, MinkusPugni, but someone will come along that knows better than I how to phrase it.

In the meantime, the following is an interesting essay by Kevin Brownlow on silent films and speeds:

http://www.cinemaweb.com/silentfilm/bookshelf/18_kb_2.htm

[Alexandra]

The age of the tape has nothing to do with the speed of the dancers. This question comes up over and over (and not on silent films, but of films made between 1930 and 1970, for the most part). People accustomed to today's dancers see historical footage and can't believe how fast dancers 30, 50, 70 years ago could turn. (Although they have no trouble believing that they're really heavier, or shorter, or with lower extensions!) People who saw the dancers during the times filmed say, "YES, they turned that fast." Different times have different concerns and emphasize different aspects of technique. Compact dancers with short, sturdy legs often turn faster than tall, very thin dancers with thin ankles and high arches. Dancers of the Ballet Russe were not as concerned about line as are dancers of today; different ages and companies have different strengths and different concerns. But yes, they really did turn that fast.