58 replies to this topic

[vagansmom]

I don't like seeing the disparity in size between the men and women in pairs and agree that Sale/Pelletier are well-matched. They remind me a little of Tai Babilonia and Randy Gardner, a US pair from some years back. They were well-matched in size and as a result, it was very aesthetically pleasing. Sometimes, with the couples who aren't matched in size, one gets the feeling that the man is tossing a girl, rather than woman, around. It's almost an entirely different aesthetic.

[Colleen]

Wow, I'm impressed that someone remembers Tai and Randy! The sign of a true skating fan  smile.gif

[vagansmom]

Re "The sign of a true skating fan "....and old age   rolleyes.gif  

On a serious note, I really thought that the Canadians deserved the gold medal. Stylistically they're very different from the Russians. I'd love someone with the professional eye to explain to me why Sale/Pelletier DIDN'T win it. I thought their performance was every bit as technically difficult and that they skated flawlessly. The only difference I could see is that perhaps the gold was lost in the upper body. The Russians have had port de bras training and the Canadians haven't?

It so reminded me of the Babilonia/Gardner vs. Rodnina/Zeitsev (sorry, I don't know how to spell his name)years. Irina Rodnina didn't have the balletic style of the present Russian pair but she had dazzling speed and deep edges. Babilonia and Gardner were every bit the same style skater as Sale/Pelletier and matched physically as well too. To my dying day, I'll always wonder if they could've beaten Rodnina/Zeitsev (I don't remember which Olympics) when the Americans had to pull out due to Randy Gardner's torn hamstring or groin muscle.

[Natalia]

ETA ROSSIYA!!!!!!  Congratulations, Elena & Anton - GOLD medalists!!! My goodness, I am still giddy with excitement at the wondrous 'Thais' program & the correct result, IMO. No, Scott Hamilton, Sale/Pelletier did not skate a clean program; rewind the videotape & see Jaime Sale two-footing the final throw. All that said, Sale/Pelletier were also lovely & had the crowd on their side...but - but...as a ballet lover, I cannot help but give the edge to the sheer physical beauty of the Russians' lines. And, to top it off, Elena & Anton won despite the perceived handicap of having skated before the Canadians. And the Chinese, Shen/Zhao, went-for-broke with a quad throw that almost worked. Whew! What a great night of skating.

Congratulations to all three medalist teams. It all came down to stylistic preferences in that second mark. And David Pelletier deserves a special medal for his very gracious sportsmanship on the podium, as he gave a high-five to Anton Sikharulidze...despite less-than-gracious hooting by the rowdy crowd. David Pelletier is a true champion, too!

So NBC's touting of the "Toppling of the Russian Domination in Pairs" simply did not pan out this year. Tomorrow,look for more amazing Russians as the men's event kicks off, with Alexei Urmanov & Yevgeni Pluschenko leading the pack. Priama, priama!

[Melissa]

I'm still in shock about what happened last night in the pairs'competition. B&S had a beautiful program, but Anton's inability to complete the first side-by-side jump was a major error and Yelena had to fight for a couple of her landings.
S&P, on the other hand, skated flawlessly and their presentation was much more relaxed. And their program had the same degree of difficulty as the Russians.

When the ordinals came up putting S&P in second place, I was stunned. Will Olympic judges in pairs' competition *ever* allow a non-Russian team on the top of the podium? After what happened last night, I'm  more doubtful than ever. Just before the medals ceremony I found myself in complete agreement with Sandra Bezic's statement that, 'I'm embarrased for our sport.'

[Ed Waffle]

Not sure if this forum will cover ice dancing, but here is why you won't have to watch to know the finishing order of the "competitors"

This url actually works if you cut and paste it into your address window. If not, the article is below.


http://www.globeandm...ral&vg=BigAdVar iableGenerator&slug=wxfida&date=20020212&archive=OLYMPIC&site=OLYMPICHome&ad_page_name=


BY BEVERLEY SMITH

Salt Lake City -- The outcome of the Olympic ice dancing competition has already been determined, sources believe, and Canadian champions Shae-Lynn Bourne and Victor Kraatz will likely be shut out of the medals.

Allegations of prejudging and deal-making have been made in the past, such as four years ago at the Nagano Games, where the nine-time Canadian champions finished fourth. This time, they are slotted for fifth place behind Italy, Russia, France and Lithuania.

Some expected a last-minute push to get the Russian ice dancers, Irina Lobacheva and Ilia Averbukh, into position for the gold ahead of Italians Barbara Fusar-Poli and Maurizio Margaglio on Friday if Elena Berezhnaia and Anton Sikharulidze of Russia hadn't won gold in the pairs event last night.

The Canadians will face trouble right from the start, when a group of judges will agree to try to force Bourne and Kraatz into fifth place after the first compulsory dance. Canada does not have a judge on the panel. The draw for judges was made three months ago and also excluded the United States and France.

Continuing allegations of improper judging led Richard Pound of Montreal, a former vice-president of the International Olympic Committee, to call again in December for the removal of ice dancing from the Olympic program.

He first suggested dropping dance from the Olympics in 1998, after judging scandals marred the event in Nagano. Pound, who is aware that judging is still an issue, suggests replacing the ice-dancing competition with a team event, including men's, women's and pairs skaters, in a format similar to a gymnastics team event.

He said there are fewer problems with singles and pairs skating. "The competitions are won on the ice and not in clandestine meetings before the event takes place."

The Salt Lake competition will have judges from Russia, Italy, Israel, Ukraine, Lithuania, Azerbaijan, Switzerland, Germany, Bulgaria and Poland. On the panel is Yuri Balkov, the Ukrainian judge who rattled off the order of finish before the free dance at the Nagano Games to Canadian judge Jean Senft, who recorded the conversation. When Senft presented the evidence to the International Skating Union, she was suspended along with Balkov.

Balkov showed up at the world championships in Vancouver last March and managed to get accreditation and take over from another Ukrainian judge.

The only competition that seemed to break the alleged mould of predetermined judging was the Grand Prix Final in Kitchener, Ont., in December. Five of the seven judges placed French skaters Marina Anissina and Gwendal Peizerat first after the first free dance and Bourne and Kraatz first after the second. Bourne and Kraatz ended up winning the event, while the reigning world champions, Fusar-Poli and Margaglio of Italy, were placed fourth after skating the same program that won them the world title.

The five judges at Kitchener were asked to write multiple letters of explanation by Russian referee Alexander Gorshkov, who will also referee the dance event at Salt Lake.

There was no Russian judge on the panel for the Grand Prix Final. A Russian substitute judge placed the Italians first in all segments of the Grand Prix Final competition, but his vote didn't count. Gorshkov's placements also put the Italians first overall.

The president of the International Skating Union, Ottavio Cinquanta, was said to be very annoyed that Fusar-Poli and Margaglio weren't on the medals podium at the Grand Prix Final. Cinquanta, an Italian, lives in Milan, where the Italian dancers train.

[sylvia]

I'm incredibly disappointed. Right before I saw the delayed broadcast a commercial on eurosport mentioned the 'controversy' over the pairs comp and I knew, I just KNEW that B&S had made mistakes and had won anyway.

It's the first time I've seen 'Mediation'. There's a lot I admire about B&S's presentation, their purer, more classical look over S&P, their smooth balletic style, how passionate they can be without being obvious about it. Their unison on the ice is amazing and they have better extensions. I didn't find them as engaging as S&P but I'd definitely give them the higher mark in that respect.

But there were too many errors in B&S's program - Anton's stumble being the most obvious. And both of Elena's landings on the throws were poor for this level of skating. S&P were much better technically. So I have a big problem with the 3 judges that tied both pairs in the technical mark. These 3 judges also put B&S ahead on presentation.

I also have a problem with the fact that the presentation mark is the deciding factor when a judge ties 2 pairs overall, e.g. 5.8/5.9 for one pair, 5.9/5.8 for the other. I'm really against this. It is after all a sport and I really believe that the technical mark should have more importance. 2 judges did this - tied the 2 pairs with B&S ahead on presentation and S&P ahead technically.

So that's 5 1st place ordinals for B&S.

2 judges scored S&P higher on both marks.
2 judges scored S&P higher technically and tied both pairs on presentation.

So that's 4 1st place ordinals for S&P.

I favoured B&S to win but not like this. The gold medal won't be any good for them - the controversy's going to hang over their heads for a long time.

Yahoo for S&Z for going for that quad throw salchow. But the fall seemed to put them off a little - they weren't as clean as they've been in the past. They've improved in their 2nd mark a great deal but I can't figure how some of the judges could mark them the same presentation-wise as S&P. The two just don't compare.

And I&Z were fantastic. I would have put them over T&M into 4th. They had so much more energy than T&M who were very rough around the edges and seemed to wilt more and more as the skate went on.

I didn't spot B&S's two-footed landing Jeannie but I'll go back and have a look at my tape.

This has made me rather gloomy about the ice-dancing. After Bourne & Kraatz won the GP final I thought they'd have a real shot at a medal. Now I have no idea.

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: sylvia ]

[sylvia]

Sorry, double post

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: sylvia ]

[Colleen]

But we have to remember that even a seasoned eye won't see what a judge's eye will. And perhaps there were things that an amateur won't consider, like speeed, that will influence a judge's choice of first place. And as this was the LP, artistry over technique was favoured and it has often happened that a technical mistake has not cost a pair or single skater the gold (Oksana Baiul immediately comes to mind). And even this Canadian can admit that as engaging as Love Story is, the sheer artistic talent of the Russians is better than that of the Canadians. And in the end it's a judgment call, do you like dancer X's technique-artistry over dancer y's artistry-technique?
I think it was a greater 'mistake' that Ina and Zimmerman were in 5th largely because they skated so early in the evening. I thought they were possibly even better than the Chinese pair given their (the Chinese) not-so-great showing last night. But what do I know  smile.gif

p.s. Maybe we should start a new thread for each of the discipline's?

[Victoria Leigh]

Quote from the article above:

[He said there are fewer problems with singles and pairs skating. "The competitions are won on the ice and not in clandestine meetings before the event takes place."]

After last night I'm not at all sure of that. I love the Russians and their program is very beautiful, but, at least last night, I really felt that the Canadians won it, in every aspect. I found the judging highly questionable, including the placement of Ina and Zimmerman, who I felt were far better than the Chinese.  While I applaud the attempt at the quad throw, their program is choreographically and artistically not Olympic medal quality. There is no flow and no line, just tricks, and not all of those work.  Just my opinion, of course  smile.gif

[Natalia]

I've replayed my video &, indeed, Jaime Sale's left foot appears to ever-so-slightly touch the ice as she comes down from the throw triple loop. I am flabbergasted that the NBC commentators didn't utter a peep about even the possibility of a two-footed landing. I noted it during the live show as did others who watched at my house.

On the other hand, I too am disappointed with Ina/Zimmerman's 5th-place spot over Totmiamina/Marinin, whose skating left me flat. They have gorgeous long lines, though. Eastern European judges, in particular, tend to favor ultra-thin long torsos & ribbon-like tappering arms & fingers in the women...the 'Galina Mezentseva Plastique' as I term it. Maybe the bias toward this 'look' plays on the subconscious of the judges, when doling out the artistic mark? It happens even within the USA Nationals at times, especially in the ice dance. (I remember a magazine article about a highly-contested ice-dance nationals championship in the early '90s in which Renee Roca/Gorsha Sur won the gold over a team that was considered to have skated better on that night...but the woman of the silver-medal team had a curvy, less balletic figure than did Renee Roca. The Sports Illustrated magazine article that discussed this event was titled 'The Thinner Was the Winner.' I'm sure that we could have lengthy discussions on this issue, as it directly ties to a major issues in the world of ballet. Not sure that I wish to moderate that one, though!!   wink.gif   )

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Jeannie ]

[dirac]

I have seen competitions and been slightly bewildered by the outcome, but there was no bewilderment here.  Yes, this is how skaters "win ugly."  It was close, and a judgment call, and for once I think the judges made the right one.  It seemed to me that what Berezhnaya and Sikharulidze were doing was clearly on a different level from what Sale and Pelletier were doing, although granted they were not flawless and their errors more obvious (I also thought Sale two-footed that landing.)  Bezic, to her credit, pointed out the superior difficulty of the Russians' program not once but twice.  But Olympic programs, even winning ones, are not always that distinguished -- the pressure is probably just too intense.

I also think the jingoistic "At-last-the-Russians- will-be-toppled" pre-publicity a little too much, building up expectations much too high.  I'm sorry for Ina and Zimmerman, but on the other hand it's hard to get hopped up over the difference between fourth and fifth, although I quite understand that it doesn't seem so to them.

[jbtlse]

Sometimes skaters flub a bit but their passion sustains them and they win--Elena and Antun often win like this and deserve it--they are stunning and vulnerable--I am often moved by their performances--even imperfect ones.  However last night I thought they were awkward--and they made some errors.  The pure love for skating was not evident in their eyes and movement--it was however to be found in Sale and Pelletier's skating--they are charming and very refreshing--and stylistically very different.  When champion has been defined by one style for so long it is very hard I'm sure to get out of that pattern.  Also different people like different styles--judges are people and in skating their preferences do make a difference--as either a fan or competitor that has to be taken as part of the sport. It must be terribly frustrating to know you've aced it ( and you can win because you have won versus the other team)--but ultimately it is beyond your control.  That doesn't mean I enjoyed Sale and Pelletier's performance one bit less because they did not end up winning a gold medal--it was inspirational! I watch skating (and dance) because I enjoy it so much--it makes me happy and Sale and Pelletier's performance last night made me (and them) really happy!
It's ironic--I think the adrenalin that fuels competitions makes those performances the most exciting to watch--but the scoring and ranking I could do without!

[Natalia]

dirac - You make an excellent point regarding the jingoism of NBC, particularly regarding Russia. Remember my earlier comment re. the Opening Ceremonies & the theme of 'Stick-It-to-Russia' in the symbolism that came with having the 1980 Lake Placid USA hockey team light the torch. [Yeah...NBC co-owns a cable network that will soon air a docudrama about that hockey team...that "may just have contributed" to the selection of the torch lighters.   wink.gif   ]  Also, Bob Costas et. al. over-did the "Will Jamie & David end the 40-YR RUSSIAN DOMINATION in Pairs Skating" thing a bit!

As this thread is becoming quite large, I will begin an 'Olympics, part 2' thread above this. We can continue our discussion on the pairs outcome + begin to talk about the Mens Competition, which begins tonight.

[ February 12, 2002: Message edited by: Jeannie ]