Jump to content


Do we *really* need Rothbart in the Pdd?


  • Please log in to reply
21 replies to this topic

#1 Lukayev

Lukayev

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 27 June 2001 - 01:34 AM

(I had to bring this up)..

As I stated above.. do we really need von Rothbart (or in some cases, his evil female twin) in the Black Swan pas de deux?

--Luka

[ 06-27-2001: Message edited by: Luka ]

#2 Mme. Hermine

Mme. Hermine

    Emeralds Circle

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,730 posts

Posted 27 June 2001 - 05:59 AM

well i think it makes sense when she goes to him at some point as if to collaborate. and since this is supposed to be a court and at least until the last moment, she and rothbart being received royally, then it would seem that as her father? whatever?, he is presenting her. i don't know to what extent that means he has to be involved partnering wise, however.

#3 Alexandra

Alexandra

    Board Founder

  • Administrators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,246 posts

Posted 27 June 2001 - 11:18 AM

NO!!!!! He was not "added to that part because the original Siegfried was getting old and didn't want to do the lifts." Von Rothbart was there from the beginning and played a dramatic role in the act; the "partnering" was incidental. The pas de trois -- a device often used by Petipa; think of "Le Corsaire" -- was structurally important, the mate of the pas de trois in the second act, with Benno (see Benno thread).

#4 Mel Johnson

Mel Johnson

    Diamonds Circle

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,311 posts

Posted 27 June 2001 - 11:37 AM

It still makes sense to have him in there when the ballet is presented as a part of a four-act complete version. When the pdd is offered as an independent divertissement, he becomes superfluous. And Von R. doesn't do any lifts with Odile. Siegfried does any that are in there.

#5 doug

doug

    Bronze Circle

  • Editorial Advisor
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 324 posts

Posted 27 June 2001 - 07:03 PM

I've not looked closely at the Black Swan notations, but Roland John Wiley writes (in TCHAIKOVSKY'S BALLETS) that Petipa planned what we now call the Black Swan Pas de Deux as a pas de quatre demi d'action, including Odile, Siegfried, an extra cavalier (I always forget) and von Rothbart, who acted but didn't dance. This info corresponds with the original cast list from 1895. Gorsky published a notation of a variation for the extra cavalier (he WAS the extra cavalier in 1895 and the choreography of the variation is credited to him - it's a really great variation, too, BTW), set to the waltz in B-flat major. The "d'action" part comes during the adagio when Odile converses in mime with von Rothbart and the vision of Odette appears. And, yes, the 32 fouettes are notated! :(

This is drawing on two threads, but I wonder why both adagios incorporate extra cavaliers. Again, I do not think it was because Gerdt was a big wimp. He could partner and did partner into the 20th century. I generally do not look for any philosophical/psychological reasoning in Petipa's works but, taking that route for just a moment, Siegfried is potentially made to look weak or young. (And Gerdt was neither!)

Any ideas?

#6 Alexandra

Alexandra

    Board Founder

  • Administrators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,246 posts

Posted 27 June 2001 - 08:39 PM

Could it be simply a part of court etiquette? There was no privacy there. People didn't go out into the forest alone, with or without crossbows. Something similar still exists in Raymonda, when the four cavaliers partner her (and I believe Jean de Brienne was one of those four cavaliers initially).

#7 Lukayev

Lukayev

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 27 June 2001 - 11:30 PM

I have no idea if this makes sense, but the Rose Adagio has the four suitors for Aurora partnering her as a part of 'court etiquette'.. or not? Was everyone just polite and danced with whomever was present? :(

--Luka

#8 doug

doug

    Bronze Circle

  • Editorial Advisor
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 324 posts

Posted 28 June 2001 - 12:02 AM

With the Rose Adagio, the four princes are suitors of Princess Aurora and their courting dance with her is part of the larger pas d'action of Act I, i.e., part of the plot.

In RAYMONDA Act III, Jean de Brienne has no solo variation (and this was Sergei Legat, not Pavel Gerdt). In the original, he danced a pas de quatre with Bernard and Beranger, the two troubador friends of Raymonda, plus another cavalier (again, Alexander Gorsky - type casting?! :().

#9 Alexandra

Alexandra

    Board Founder

  • Administrators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 9,246 posts

Posted 28 June 2001 - 05:56 AM

Emploi!

#10 Mel Johnson

Mel Johnson

    Diamonds Circle

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,311 posts

Posted 28 June 2001 - 06:53 AM

And related to emploi, but different from it, at least within Swan Lake itself, intentional parallel construction.

#11 Melissa

Melissa

    Senior Member

  • Member
  • PipPipPip
  • 104 posts

Posted 28 June 2001 - 02:46 PM

I think von Rothbart is necessary in Act III. Tchaikovsky and -- if I'm not mistaken -- Petipa wrote music and choregraphy for the character. VR has a solo in Act III scored for brass and strings, and isn't the music with the theme played by oboes supposed to be a pas de trois for Siegfried, Odile and VR?

#12 Mel Johnson

Mel Johnson

    Diamonds Circle

  • Moderators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 5,311 posts

Posted 28 June 2001 - 05:31 PM

I can't speak for the current version of ABT's production, but in the Petipa/Ivanov 1895 version, Von Rothbart does not dance as such at all. He has some moments where he acts as a support for Odile, and after the Black Swan Pdd, there is a scena for the three of them where the "waltz of the princesses" is briefly reprised, and then moves into some fairly forceful mime, where Von R. extorts a promise to marry Odile from Siegfried.

#13 LMCtech

LMCtech

    Bronze Circle

  • Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 310 posts

Posted 28 June 2001 - 08:56 PM

Okay that is how I'm remembering the story going more. Correct if I am mistaken but VR IS a character role right. So he wouldn't necesarily have or need a "variation".

#14 doug

doug

    Bronze Circle

  • Editorial Advisor
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 324 posts

Posted 28 June 2001 - 08:57 PM

Melissa, I think the two variations you mention are part of the Pas de Six that was in the original score (1877) and possibly intended by Tchaikovsky and Reisinger (the first choreographer) as a pas for the six princesses - hence, the addition for Odile of what we now know as Tchaikovsky Pas de Deux shortly after the first performance. I'd have to check Wiley re: 1877 to see if the affiche for the first performance lists participants in the Pas de Six. Certainly the brass variation sounds a lot like music from the lakeside scene when Rothbart appears and the oboe variation seems to suit Odile's character. But Mel is right that the Pas de Dix was omitted from the 1895 production. Bulgakov was Rothbart in 1895 and his was a non-dancing role.

#15 Lukayev

Lukayev

    Member

  • Member
  • PipPip
  • 58 posts

Posted 29 June 2001 - 12:05 AM

I have this so-called complete Swan Lake collection I ripped onto two CD's, and there is a variation listed under the Pas de Six as Variation V - Moderato; Allegro semplice that fits the description of an oboe-played theme. I don't know if that's it, but it might be.. :confused:

--Luka


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


Help support Ballet Alert! and Ballet Talk for Dancers year round by using this search box for your amazon.com purchases (adblockers may block display):