303 replies to this topic

[Birdsall]

Cygnet, on 26 November 2012 - 10:20 AM, said:

I agree with your points Birdsall, however Somova's issues were never solely based on her hyper-extension.  There are
many dancers who have hyper-extended hips, knees and weak pointes (as Somova does), and yet they learn (or try) to control their movements.  It's a question of the artistic choices that dancers make.  In Somova's case it's always been her catch-as-catch can, on again and (mostly) off technique, plus the lack of turnout that have been her problems from day one.  She has used her hyper-extension over the years as a failsafe to compensate for her technical deficiencies.  She loves to dance - that's evident, and she has dramatic abilities, however, these aren't the sum total of a performance or interpretations of a gallery of roles in a repertory.  Reliable technique is the essential other half of that equation.  Skoryk and Somova are two different ladies, and very different dancers, yet they are cut from the same aesthetic cloth that Fateev favors.  They have two things in common:  Both were pushed into the spotlight prematurely, and both have the favor of the powers that be.  To say that one who is fearful and somewhat less satisfying than the other who is fearless, but gets consistently mixed results - even after 8.5 years in the spotlight, is like having to choose between liver and liverwurst.  In the end, it's all a matter of one's palate.

Although I am new to ballet, opera has this same exact issue and has had it probably since opera began. There are always controversial dancers. There have been MANY opera singers throughout history that people love and others hate and can't understand what others see. Some singers make blaring mistakes all the time yet are stars. Some GREATS even have flaws (Nilsson sang sharp a lot, Sutherland's diction was mushy, Callas had a flawed upper register, Caballe overused her pianissimi, etc). These ladies I just named are "greats" but had flaws everyone complains about. Today Cecilia Bartoli is controversial. Many rave and swoon over her while others are shocked anyone could like her due to her facial mannerisms and aspirated coloratura. When she came on the scene her naysayers thought she was the most horrible opera singer in the world, but she has withstood the test of time, but some continue to dislike her singing immensely while others swoon over her singing. Her cds sell better than any other singer and her concerts sell out. Maria Guleghina is another singer I personally find very controversial. She has power to burn but blasts away and when she sings bel canto it is like a bull in a china shop, but many knowledgeable opera lovers think she is fabulous!

Anyway, this element of the performing arts has and will always be a part of things. Certain artists divide people completely. Obviously, this is the category Somova falls into. But I think if she is given choreography, she can always dance the steps, and it is her execution that people do not like. However, she actually dances the steps (maybe with extensions that people find too high). In contrast, Skorik seems to not even be able to dance the actual steps. Everything has to be simplified, so I do not think this is the same thing at all.

[puppytreats]

Who signed the MT letter today?

[cubanmiamiboy]

Birdsall, on 26 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Obviously, this is the category Somova falls into. But I think if she is given choreography, she can always dance the steps, and it is her execution that people do not like. However, she actually dances the steps...

No, BB...she does not. Her grand jetes are never "grand"...her fouettes are butchered and out of center...her balances are a joke.  There's nothing on her technique that makes her different from every other "non ballerina" ballet dancer.

[Birdsall]

cubanmiamiboy, on 26 November 2012 - 05:26 PM, said:

Birdsall, on 26 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

Obviously, this is the category Somova falls into. But I think if she is given choreography, she can always dance the steps, and it is her execution that people do not like. However, she actually dances the steps...

No, BB...she does not. Her grand jetes are never "grand"...her fouettes are butchered and out of center...her balances are a joke.  There's nothing on her technique that makes her different from every other "non ballerina" ballet dancer.

My point in this Skorik thread is that there is a big difference (in my personal opinion) between Skorik and Somova. You have every right to dislike Somova and think she is terrible. That is your opinion, and it is your right to think that. But I see a huge difference between the two dancers. Somova does the hops on pointe in Giselle's Spessivtseva variation on pointe. Skorik does them with an almost flat foot or with simplified choreography (adding turns to hide the fact she can not hop on pointe). This is just one example.

I personally think Somova's grand jetes and fouettes are an example of what I mentioned above. Her knee is hyper-extended much more than the average dancer even more hyper-extended than dancers with hyperextension, so I understand why some people don't like it. The hyper-extension gives her a floppy rag doll look when doing grand jetes and fouettes because of her hyper-extension which is actually not "uncontrolled".....it looks uncontrolled due to her extreme hyper-extension, but people have been reporting that she is changing that slowly. I will repeat what I consider to be true. Hyper-extension is very, very difficult to change. People who are hyper-extended do not feel like their leg is straight when you move the two halves of their leg into what you see as a "straight" line. They will feel like you just bent their knee very much and they feel bent. They are always going to want to go back to what I call their "default" which is their body's basic way of holding itself. And then when you add the problem that hyperextension is usually a thing that coaches and teachers want in ballet dancers, well, then you have a dancer with natural hyper-extension stretching her hyper-extension out more and more over time and getting approval as she is growing up. These hyper-extended people don't feel like they are holding their leg straight unless they hyper-extend the leg. For these types of people they only feel like their leg is straight when the two halves are going in the wrong (by wrong, I am comparing to normal human beings with no hyper-extension) direction (bending so that the knee goes inward instead of the normal outward).

But I did not mean for this topic to turn into a Somova bashing thing. But since she was brought up I do think Somova and Skorik are world's apart. I think if you give Somova steps to do, she will do them. She might not do them how you personally like them done (you might hate the look of them), but she would do them. Judging from many past performances if you give Skorik steps to do she will fall or stumble or have to simplify the choreography. I think that is a huge difference.

With all this said I wish both of these dancers the best and hope that Skorik can improve her technique or somehow work on her nerves (which might be her major problem).

[cubanmiamiboy]

In that case, I might also do the complete Giselle Pas Seul...which I know like the palm of my hand.  Problem being...I'm not a female, I'm not a ballet dancer and more important...I don't know how to stand on my toes. I will butcher it, definitely.  Does that make me qualified to as a Pas Seul performer..? Definitely not.  It is not that I don't like the way Somova or Skorik perform. It is that their performances are just a travesty of the pieces in question.  You have seen Skorik in this pas.  Go back in time, on Youtube, and watch a way older rendition,  back when technique was, as many declare, not as developed as it is now, with the likes of Markova or Alonso.  When they were performing it, they were ready...or they were good, period.   Somova and Skorik are neither one.

[Mashinka]

With respect, I don’t think comparisons with singers hold up too well here.  The week before last I went to Bartoli’s Steffani concert at the Barbican and there wasn’t an empty seat in the house despite the eye-watering price of the tickets (I paid £50 for the back row at the top) and Cecilia’s ecstatic worshipers sounded as if they didn’t begrudge a penny if you judge by the deafening applause at the end.  Errors in singing technique are not so difficult to spot as our ears are attuned to registering wrong notes and I know many people for whom Callas’s voice will forever put them in mind of nails down a blackboard.  Errors in dance technique are more difficult to recognize, especially for newcomers, and you need to know the choreography of a ballet pretty well before you can spot the changes and omissions that certain dancers habitually make and it’s no surprise that it is the contortionists that feel it necessary to alter things to accommodate their ‘personal style’.

When a Kirov season is announced in London, the fans are desperate to find out casting before booking – to avoid booking for the unwatchables and I’m pretty certain there is no dancer in the company that could inspire the same level of enthusiasm as a Cecilia Bartoli.  I’ve personally given up on the Kirov seasons in Baden Baden that I enjoyed so much in the past as I feel the company no longer merits the costs of flights, accommodation and tickets as the Somova and Skoriks of this world are simply not worth the time and the money and above all, the effort.  When the contortionists take over the world, and there is a horrible chance they will, I will probably stop going to the ballet altogether, but the company that will be the first I’ll turn my back on now looks certain to be the Kirov.

[Birdsall]

Bartoli is highly controversial among the cognoscenti despite selling out concerts at top prices. I like her, but I understand WHY some do not. I have seen her facial contortions that are not supposed to be there. Most voice teachers or coaches would tell her to stop that. I also hear her aspirated coloratura that is the major complaint of many. It does not bother me either, but to some opera fans it is simply horrendous.

So I think the comparison is actually fitting. People new to opera would probably see that Bartoli is a "star" and hear that she does amazing things with her voice and will not understand at all why many can not stand what she does.

Same with Callas. You even say that for many it is like fingernails on a chalkboard. I hear that aspect of her voice but I love her recordings to death. In fact, I would probably grab her recordings first if the house were on fire, but it was a very flawed voice and people still argue today about why she had such a short career and whether her technique was actually good or not. She divided many people when she was singing, and she still divides people in their appreciation or lack of appreciation. This is a case where someone who wants pure voice "voce, voce, voce" and prefers the beauty of the voice above all other aspects of opera will probably not like Callas at all. With that said I think she did have a beautiful voice but it was problematic.

I have to honestly say that I have never really understood what people hear when they listen to Birgit Nilsson (I hear gasps and people fainting and having a heart attack right now all over the world). I just don't like her voice at all, especially when she sang the Italian rep. She was okay to my ears in Wagner, but I would much prefer to listen to Nina Stemme.

I think there is always going to be differences of opinions about certain artists and divided opinions.

My point is that Somova is someone who divides opinions, and I am saying that without trying to say she's good or bad. You decide.

But there is a difference between that type of artist and someone who makes mistake after mistake and has to constantly simplify to the point where the choreography is blaringly different.

You have this in opera too. You have singers who transpose the music to make it suit their voice better, leave out traditional high notes if it is not written in the score, etc. Then, you have singers who throw in extra high notes or hold notes way longer than the score or conductor intends. An example is that almost every singer I hear in La Traviata as Violetta omits the trills in the cabaletta "Sempre Libera" except on recordings. It is because trilling during very fast passages is hard, and many, many singers leave the trills out. A few keep them in. Even greats of the past would fudge at times also.

[Cygnet]

Birdsall I agree with you on some of your examples from the opera.  For example, soprano Deborah Voigt made her debut as Brunnhilde in the Met's "Ring Cycle" in 2011 and opinion was definitely divided.   One camp said that she was going to be one of the greats in the role, and another camp said that although her diction was exemplary, she was weak in the low registers and couldn't (or chose) not to sustain high notes long enough, (to please certain critics).  Does this mean that she doesn't have the temperament for this role, (miscasting), or does it mean she isn't technically ready to sing this role yet?   If it's the former, it may be that she isn't a heroic soprano - even though Brunnhilde is in her range and she has the stage presence for it.  If it's the latter it may be she hasn't perfected the role yet.  After all it was her debut.  My point is this:  Her presentation, execution and delivery may not have satisfied everyone, (no one can please everyone), but she delivered without one flat note or mistake in the texts of the three operas she appeared in.  That's basic technical proficiency which is the foundation to develop a role and one's personal interpretation of a role. This isn't the case with Oxana Skoryk (or Alina Somova).

To piggy-back on Cubanmiamiboy's and Mashinka's comments, I'd also like to interject that when Somova started out in leading classical roles, former Director Makhar Vaziev allowed her to simplify the choreography for O/O, Paquita, Kitri, Medora, Nikiya, and Dryad, just to name a few.  Compared to the other active Principals and top Soloists on roster in rotation between mid May 2004 when she made her O/O debut and - early summer 2012, (pdds and variations), her Odile; Kitri, the leading role in Paquita, Medora, Nikiya (Act 3) - all of them were simplified.  She's never been a pyro-technician, or a classical purist on the same level of the active Primas on the roster.  At this moment, neither is Skoryk.  On the other hand, IMO Somova has always been outdone and outclassed by her peers.  In fact, Aurora (Sergeyev's version), Giselle and the Lavrovsky Juliet are the only roles in her rep (sans the Balanchines, Ratmanskys and works like Millepied's "Without" and "Etudes"), that haven't been altered to her specs (or abilities).  I remember when the Mariinsky still performed the 1890 "Beauty" reconstruction, she inserted a different ending in the final passages of Aurora's Act 2 variation (the Gold Fairy's variation).

Re Oxana, I suspect that she, (like Alina), may achieve her personal best in the Mariinsky's modern rep, in ballets like Ratmansky's "Cinderella," and "Little Humpbacked Horse."  If anything, I think that these are roles she should start out with
- not the warhorses.  She should now be preparing and perfecting the warhorse roles behind closed doors until she's ready for primetime; and however long it takes is how long it takes.  Unfortunately, that's not how Fateev operates.  Skoryk is currently going through a baptism by fire because of the maternity leaves in the Principal rank.  If Fateev decides to revive Forsythe's rep both ladies would be natural casting for those works. However, he didn't cast Somova in those ballets, and he probably won't cast Skoryk in them either because he believes that they're both diamonds of technical brilliance fit only for Petipa's canon.  If Skoryk learns to conquer her stage fright, settles down, and is given the benefit of wise and intelligent guidance, she has a shot to make it.  Otherwise, I fear we may see another person who isn't adequately prepared for Principal, nor proven on that level be promoted within the next two years - minimum.

[Birdsall]

I like reading all the comments. I have to say I did enjoy Somova's Lavrovsky Juliet. So far I have yet to enjoy anything I have seen Skorik do, but I hope you are right and she can actually improve. Maybe it is nerves, and now that she is in a fish bowl she feels pressure and can't handle it during performances. Part of me feels sorry for her, but at the same time, if I fly to St. Petersburg I do not want to have to be scared that she will be cast as Aurora, for example. Someone commented earlier that it is UNHEARD of that we have to be scared when going to see the Mariinsky. That was never the case when it was the Kirov according to many people.

Are there any rules about promotion? Since Skorik was promoted to First Soloist this past September, is that the level she'll stay at for the duration of this season? Or can someone be promoted twice in one season (at the beginning and then at the end)? Are there any rules concerning this? I know some never get promoted, so I suspect there are no hard and fast rules, but how fast has the fastest dancer been promoted at the Mariinsky, for instance? Does anyone know? Or is it different for each person? If a dancer is promoted one step at a time up the ladder is she sometimes promoted more than once in a season?

[cubanmiamiboy]

Where is Natalia...? I need her here STAT.

[Cygnet]

Birdsall, on 27 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

I like reading all the comments. I have to say I did enjoy Somova's Lavrovsky Juliet. So far I have yet to enjoy anything I have seen Skorik do, but I hope you are right and she can actually improve. Maybe it is nerves, and now that she is in a fish bowl she feels pressure and can't handle it during performances. Part of me feels sorry for her, but at the same time, if I fly to St. Petersburg I do not want to have to be scared that she will be cast as Aurora, for example.

She may get Aurora sooner rather than later.  Oxana seems to be on the same career trajectory as her predecessor - even down to the order of roles - it's eerie.   

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Are there any rules about promotion?

The unspoken de facto "rule" is this:  To be considered for prima ballerina, one must perform Odette/Odile in the Mariinsky Theatre.  If one comes from another (lesser) theatre and have O/O in your rep (like 1st soloists Matvienko and Kolegova), you may dance it many times, but you most likely will not become a Mariinsky Prima.  There have been exceptions.  In the previous generation, Lubov Kunakova and Olga Tchyenchikova (Vaziev's wife), both came from the Perm company with O/O and principal experience and they became Kirov megastars.  Nioradze is another one who came from the outside (the Tblisi school and company) and went to the top.  However, if one is homegrown and attains the O/O milestone, it doesn't mean that one will ever get a debut or a  follow-up performance.  And if you do, that doesn't mean that you will ever promote to Principal.  The other major classical roles matter as well and enhance one's bio but O/O is the most coveted role.  Vishneva became a principal without O/O after her debut as Kitri shortly after her graduation.  However, she waited a decade before her hometown debut.  In the interim she outsourced her debut and danced the role to great acclaim in Berlin, with ABT, POB and in Tokyo. Before she became a Bolshoi Principal, Obraztsova had to make her debut with the Stanislavsky in Moscow.  

Osmolkina made her debut, however she hasn't followed up yet and that was about 6 years ago -> (?) it's been so long... .  Osmolkina's two follow-up performances were with the Royal Ballet at Covent Garden.  Novikova made her hometown debut last year and she hasn't followed up yet either.  Her actual debut was with the Novosibirsk company.  She made her debut as Nikiya with her husband (Sarafanov) at the Mikhailovsky in summer 2011; but still no Mariinsky Nikiya debut.  She recently followed up her hometown Raymonda debut, in the wake of her success in the La Scala recon, but her debut occurred 5 years ago.  Do you see what's going on?  

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Since Skorik was promoted to First Soloist this past September, is that the level she'll stay at for the duration of this season?  Or can someone be promoted twice in one season (at the beginning  and then at the end)? Are there any rules concerning this? I know some never get promoted, so I suspect there are no hard and fast rules, ... Does anyone know? Or is it different for each person? If a dancer is promoted one step at a time up the ladder is she sometimes promoted more than once in a season?...

He reports to Maestro Gergiev, but Fateev casts and promotes whomever he wants - which is his prerogative.

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...but how fast has the fastest dancer been promoted at the Mariinsky, for instance?

In recent years, among the women I'd nominate Vishneva's 1995 appointment as the fastest promotion to Principal - she went from graduation performance to Principal.  For the men, I'd say Sarafanov ascended fast.  He was originally a recruit from Ukraine and is now with the Mikhailovsky.  To answer one of your other questions, when Somova was appointed principal she hadn't made annual as 1st soloist when she got the nod from Fateev.  After Maestro Gergiev raised him to interim Director, Fateev immediately promoted Vaziev's wife's pupil (Somova). This was after Makhar Vaziev departed for La Scala.  So, that was (almost) bound to happen.  In retrospect it was inevitable.

[Birdsall]

I read somewhere that Somova actually was encouraged by Vaziev's wife to use very high extensions.

Could this be true?

[mumwang]

Perhaps I should explain further why I found skoryk's debut an okay effort. Firstly I tought her physical qualities were immediately evident and it does give her a pleasing aesthetic line. There were individual mistakes yes, but every dancer makes missteps. Vishneva and Kondaurova also committed blunders in the shades scene though I thoroughly enjoyed both. While I'm defi not saying that skoryk's communicative ability is on the level where she make us forget those mistakes unlike the other two but the point is no one can expect a flawless performance in one of the hardest classical role. I understand fifi's disappointment, if one was expecting a Mariinsky principal or a personal fav than skoryk no doubt was a huge let down but I went to watch a debut from a controversial and young soloist and I thought I got exactly that-a mixed performance with good and bad moments. Perhaps her biggest issue is her inability to communicate with her partners when the going gets tough. In act 1 she responded well to her partner and the fire dance was fine and delicate though the dance with the slave was bad, the partnering was a struggle. I'm not an expert but I thought that in act 1 the choreo was performed as it should have been though I think they omitted one jump. Major issue here was that occasionally she would be ahead of the music making the partnering insecure and difficult. In act 2 the snake dance, she performed  in my eyes good first half of the solo. Smooth penches, fine bourees and musically accurate. In the fast bit she had some issues with the footwork and when she got bitten I agree the acting was exaggerated and histrionic. The last act like I what I said she made some mistakes but for me they were forgivable because being a debut I did not expect a flawless rendition of what can be considered an undeniably pure, academic and terribly hard scene. The was a foundered arabesque in the opening pas, one botched turn in the middle pas and perhaps some smaller errors but in general I did not see major technical deficiencies. The scarf adagio went fine, the solo after that also was fine though she did not manage to extend/balance on arabesque after the double turns. The diagonal of soutenuees was fast and clean, I liked that she took her head back while transitioning to arabesque though the piques could have been done with more abandon. Again the issue here was her inability to communicate with her partner, too detached too cold in expression but in general I found her work here largely accurate and clean.

[Tara]

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With all this said I wish both of these dancers the best and hope that Skorik can improve her technique or somehow work on her nerves (which might be her major problem).

I read in an article about the documentary film which features her that Oxana scored at the top of her graduation class at Perm. This fact tells me that her major issue is NOT in knowing how to apply proper technique to her body but rather a combination of fear/self doubt and continued physical weakness and poor nutrition since adolescence.

She seems to me to be a ballerina who has to think alot about her steps to manage them and doesn't just "dance" very often. This creates a very inconsistent performer both technically and dramatically. She does not (yet?) love herself in the same healthy way Somova does...another reason it is cruel to force her to sit under spotlights. It appears though from my impression after seeing that same film that Oxana has never had a choice in the matter.... even as a child.

[Cygnet]

Tara, on 28 November 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

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With all this said I wish both of these dancers the best and hope that Skorik can improve her technique or somehow work on her nerves (which might be her major problem).

I read in an article about the documentary film which features her that Oxana scored at the top of her graduation class at Perm. This fact tells me that her major issue is NOT in knowing how to apply proper technique to her body but rather a combination of fear/self doubt and continued physical weakness and poor nutrition since adolescence.

She seems to me to be a ballerina who has to think alot about her steps to manage them and doesn't just "dance" very often. This creates a very inconsistent performer both technically and dramatically. She does not (yet?) love herself in the same healthy way Somova does...another reason it is cruel to force her to sit under spotlights. It appears though from my impression after seeing that same film that Oxana has never had a choice in the matter.... even as a child.

I remember seeing another documentary when Skoryk was (what looked like) a 4th - 5th year student at Perm Academy.  One of her teachers was quite frankly a sadistic tyrant.  This instructor was verbally abusive to her, dressed her down in front of her classmates, seemingly on a daily basis.  I can't recall the title of the doc at the moment, but her instructor's corrections weren't given with encouragement, care or concern - just daily physical and verbal torture and disparagement.  If we're discussing the same documentary, I'd tend to think that a daily dose that  would explain Skoryk's fear now.  Irina Kolesnikova had the same problem with one of her teachers at Vaganova.  As prima ballerina assoluta of the St. Petersburg Ballet Theatre (The Tkachine company), she mentioned in the past that it took her a very long time to overcome the hurtful words, to have confidence in herself and in her abilities - but she did it.  

There was another former Mariinsky dancer who IMO had great potential, (Yulia Bolshakova), and was featured early as O/O.  She was also featured in the early 2000s during the Mariinsky's summer engagement at Covent Garden as O/O.  She received all of the media hype, and was chatted up to the media by Vaziev.  She did very, very well.  However, when she made her hometown Giselle debut, she was either inadequately prepared (i.e. she wasn't "ripe" yet for the Giselle debut), or it was just unfortunate that she slipped and fell during her Act 1 solo during the hops en pointe diagonal.  She recovered and gave a decent performance to the end.  However, after this unfortunate occurence, she was quietly and incrementally filed away and forgotten by the management until she was finally dismissed.  The Bolshakova campaign was over:  There was no salvage operation, no further encouragement, no more "Swan Lakes" and no follow-up Giselle reset.  Despite that mistake, she had beautiful technique, beautiful line, a beautiful stage presence, and was a potentially excellent ballerina.  She was unafraid to perform (i.e. she loved to dance).  Even so, after this she was rarely employed, seen only as Florine (if that), in the 1890 "Sleeping Beauty" reconstruction until that production was retired.  She never toured with the company again.  

I state these examples to make this point:  Oxana needs proper care, adequate time, adequate preparation, consideration and attention from the Mariinsky management, since they've put her center stage.  She's in good hands with Yelena Yevteyeva, (who also has coached Dasha Pavlenko).  If a dancer is afraid ... well that's 99% of the battle in the first place.  I hope that Yevteyeva doesn't get discouraged and is able to help Skoryk reach her potential and get her breakthrough.

"...I like to study with (Ninel) Kurgapkina.  There's a nice atmosphere in the class...," " 'She always said, "... You dance well!
You must dance well!  You can do it!' " That means a lot."  Source: (Tatiana Terekhova, "Backstage at the Kirov" (1982).