24 replies to this topic

[Helene]

Sorry, Mel, I was typing on my phone and accidentally killed the clause "As Giselle is the one who acts individually and defines Myrta," that referred to Giselle as the Decider, which I've corrected.

I don't buy the going to Heaven part, though.  Where is the self-sacrifice there?

[Mel Johnson]

She has saved Albrecht from death, thus violating the Curse of the Wilis.  She will doubtless fare badly under Myrtha for the rest of time, unless Higher Power takes her out of the equation.   And another thing, she is compelled to rise from the dead, but of her own will, she returns there. Another sacrifice.  Her salvation by assumption is fairly well-documented in early productions, and by pictures of the stage machinery backstage.   She doesn't do what she does expecting to be redeemed afterwards, she does it out of Love!

[Helene]

Don't all of the Wilis return to the dead after the bell rings?

Isn't the supreme sacrifice that she will doubtless fare badly under Myrta for the rest of time, without the same purpose as the rest of the Wilis?

[cubanmiamiboy]

Justice and revenge are sometimes-(probably more than what we want to accept)-intertwined.  Very religious/pious people will definitely have a harder time understanding Myrtha's behaviour.

[puppytreats]

Helene, on 26 May 2012 - 09:38 AM, said:

Eva von Braun didn't think that Hitler deserved punishment.

This is not in any way analogous, with due respect, Helene.

The crime perpetrated was against Giselle.  Giselle maybe saw that Albrecht had incurred a punishment, or maybe she did not think he should be punished.  More on point, Giselle did not think that death was a just or proper punishment.  Further hurting Giselle, the victim whose injury is being addressed, by making her suffer or effectively cause Albrecht's death, does not constitute justice.

[puppytreats]

Even in the Old Testament, perpetrators of manslaughter were afforded asylum.   No doubt he caused grievous pain, but Albrecht is not a murderer.  He may have been guilty of criminally negligent homicide, but even this is open to debate.

[Helene]

From Myrta's point of view, and that's what Teuscher was talking about, the crime that Albrecht committed against women in general was more important than Giselle's or Albrecht's individual feelings. That is where the analogy holds. Individual feelings don't create justice, since there's no consensus. It might impact the sentence if the family of a murder victim forgives the murderer and doesn't want to see him punished, but it doesn't overturn the conviction.

In this case, it's supernatural vigilante law, but the women didn't choose between death and wandering through the forest each night for all of eternity.

[puppytreats]

Mel Johnson, on 26 May 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

She will doubtless fare badly under Myrtha for the rest of time.  

She would suffer eternally from knowing she contributed to Albrecht's suffering and death under Myrtha for the rest of time if she did nothing to save him.  She would be damned either way.

Another curse is converting from her true nature, or being consumed by growing, enduring hatred and anger.

Mel Johnson, on 26 May 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

She has saved Albrecht from death, thus violating the Curse of the Wilis.

Violating a curse?  Maybe saved from a curse.  Violating a "code."

Mel Johnson, on 26 May 2012 - 12:37 PM, said:

She doesn't do what she does expecting to be redeemed afterwards, she does it out of Love!

I don't think love can compel anything else.  Maybe another code or emotion can cause other actions or reactions, but love leads to fighting to protect Albrecht.

[puppytreats]

Helene, on 26 May 2012 - 12:12 PM, said:

I don't buy the going to Heaven part, though.  Where is the self-sacrifice there?

I do not know much about Christian theology, but does going to heaven require self-sacrifice?  What would have kept her out of heaven - original sin? her love of dance? her defiance of her mother's warning?  a lack of baptism?

I thought she was an innocent.  Therefore, what would bar her from heaven?

She was already sacrificed, by the way.  Therefore, why would additional self-sacrifice be required?

I also thought, under Christian theology, that the sacrifice of Jesus washed away sin.

Sorry for my ignorance.

[puppytreats]

Quote

Violating a curse?  Maybe saved from a curse.  Violating a "code."

Upon reading, I realize this came across in an unintended way. I offer my apologies to you, Mel. I just was not sure of what you were saying and did not want to misunderstand you.