72 replies to this topic

[Birdsall]

Helene, on 02 July 2012 - 05:32 PM, said:

I think it depends on which company and what decade: the first "Raymonda"'s I saw were the Bolshoi/Grigorivich version, with Bessmertnova and Semenyaka, both of which were made in the '80's. I don't think the character was unsympathetic in the 1980 Kirov/Kolpakova version, either, even if it didn't have the mesmerizing Taranda in it. I find Nureyev's version unwatchable for the most part.

Pavel Dmitrichenko was interviewed during the transmission (he danced Abderakham), and his take on the character was that he is just so in love with Raymonda and he says he loses the battle with Jean de Brienne b/c he takes a second to gaze at Raymonda and then Brienne strikes the blow. However, the transmission did not capture his gaze toward Raymonda, and I have never noticed this detail in any production. The La Scala production has the White Lady shine a mirror in his eyes which causes him to fail (she is the protector of the House of Raymonda or whatever you call it! LOL).

I have always felt sorry for the character myself. He is depicted as "different" and "rough" compared to the "European" characters, but I would be surprised if viewers hated him. The Mariinsky's version (unlike the Bolshoi's) does have him shoving his slaves around (sort of mistreating them though).

I do think with hindsight that Alexandrova, as much as I loved her performance, overdid the digust. I don't remember any other Raymonda being that grossed out by Abderakhman.

[Herman Stevens]

Unfortunately the Raymonda broadcast was taken off the internet after a day.

What I find rather puzzling is this discussion about the way Raymonda's story is un-PC. Of course it is. Virtually all 19th century ballets entail stereotypes we would like to believe are gone. What are you going to do about it?

And on the other hand Alexandrova's facial features are discussed here with a judgmental frankness that does not seem to take into account that her cheekbones and close-set eyes are ethnic features, and I doubt we would talk this way if it concerned an American company and an, let's say, African-American dancer.

I'm not casting aspersion; I'm just saying there's a little disconnect here IMO.

Raymonda is definitely supposed to feel some attraction to the Saracen; it's in Bessmertnova's face and in Semenyaka's, too. Part of the triumph in Act III is that she's managed to shake this thrill. That's what makes Raymonda such a fascinating ballet: not just killing the weird guy, but confronting and mastering the weirdness in ourselves.

[Birdsall]

Herman Stevens, on 24 July 2012 - 11:55 AM, said:

Unfortunately the Raymonda broadcast was taken off the internet after a day.

What I find rather puzzling is this discussion about the way Raymonda's story is un-PC. Of course it is. Virtually all 19th century ballets entail stereotypes we would like to believe are gone. What are you going to do about it?

And on the other hand Alexandrova's facial features are discussed here with a judgmental frankness that does not seem to take into account that her cheekbones and close-set eyes are ethnic features, and I doubt we would talk this way if it concerned an American company and an, let's say, African-American dancer.

I'm not casting aspersion; I'm just saying there's a little disconnect here IMO.

Raymonda is definitely supposed to feel some attraction to the Saracen; it's in Bessmertnova's face and in Semenyaka's, too. Part of the triumph in Act III is that she's managed to shake this thrill. That's what makes Raymonda such a fascinating ballet: not just killing the weird guy, but confronting and mastering the weirdness in ourselves.

I like your interpretation about confronting the weirdness in ourselves. I think that is an element of Raymonda.

By the way, when I talked about Alexandrova's facial features as being stern or her eyebrows I did not view her as anything but Russian/European. I did not really think of her features as any ethnicity other than European and many Europeans do not have her stern look, so I wasn't not thinking of her features as a race issue, although I want to say that I find her to be a beautiful woman, so I am not trying to criticize her looks at all. I was just trying to explain why she may have looked more disgusted by Abderakhman than when other dancers portray Raymonda. I think she is able to look disgusted very easily, and that is due to her unique look that I think is about her own personal features and not about her race.

I am half Asian (Japanese mother and Anglo-Saxo father descended from French, English, and German people). In my family, my dad would joke that we are Japs and we would laugh at his white legs at the beach. Also, I had a grandmother who did not like the fact that my father married a Japanese woman, although she eventually grew to love my mother, so racial issues and racism are sort of normal issues for my family. Issues of race and racism are not taboo at all. My reality of growing up with a grandmother who was racist against my mother and yet still loving both of them gave me a different perspective on racism also. There are levels of racism and also a person who is racist is not necessarily a horrible person.....just has not had exposure or has ideas that may change over time with positive experiences.

[Mashinka]

Alexandrova is a Slav with the typical high cheekbones of Eastern Europe, but still fundamentally European unless there is anyone out there still adhering to the strange interpretations of race that the Nazis dreamed up.  Raymonda is French in the story, presumably Gallic, but as it is a Russian ballet is it has been predominantly danced by Slavs for generations.  Abderakhman is referred to as a Moor, a rather loose term, which generally means either an Arab or Sub-Saharan, but his name is Islamic and so by race probably Semitic.

Raymonda's fear of the man is because he represents the enemy her fiancée is fighting in the Crusades and an enemy that sought to subjugate Southern France.  Alexandrova's interpretation of the role sounds a little harsh, as I have seen other Raymonda's that have spared Abderakhman a pitying glance as he is carried off to his death.  Clearly she has no feelings other than hate for the man who has just engaged her lover in battle.

[Birdsall]

I have always been under the impression that Abderakhman was a guest visiting Raymonda's family. So even if he was the enemy he was a guest at that moment. He brings gifts in the first act (Mariinsky version). The Bolshoi version has him appearing first in her dream which makes less sense to me, b/c why would she dream of him before she ever lays eyes on him?

But the main reason I wanted to post is to post a link to this article which I found, b/c above we were discussing the issue of racism in Raymonda. I found this article interesting.

http://www.dancemaga...ic-or-Offensive

[cubanmiamiboy]

I'm not convinced of the blue face solution for the Moor in Petrushka.  They can darken his skin to a certain degree so the result is not that much of a parody, but then..isn't the WHOLE thing about the Moor's solo choreo while alone in his room a parody...? If you were to try to change the whole thing, you might as well better forget about the entire ballet, because the Moor's story is all about the western caricaturized  perception of his ethnic/social group.

[Birdsall]

I don't have any answers. I just thought the article was interesting and something to think about. But there are no perfect solutions.

[cubanmiamiboy]

Perhaps that's why Petrushka is falling into oblivion...a shame, if it is.

[Birdsall]

I think the Mariinsky did it last season. I get the impression that the Ballets Russes ballets are not very popular in the U.S. Even Firebird doesn't seem to be played as often as you would think it should be. ABT just did a new version, but I don't think many other companies do it currently. Maybe it will change. I think there are fashions/trends in ballet. I know there are in opera. For years you won't see something like Rusalka and then suddenly everyone is doing Rusalka all over the place.

[Helene]

I look at the Bolshoi and  Mariinsky schedules often for our Calendar, and there aren't very many performances of mixed bills.  Full-length ballets comprise the large majority of the companies' schedules, not just the touring schedules.

Have the Folkine Ballets Russes ballets been a focus of either company during Soviet times?

About "Raymonda" I've heard Moscow described as a medieval Silk Road-like market town, and also considered the sticks and backwards until it was renamed the capital and became modernized. It had been ruled by Mongols/Tatars, I wonder if the portrayal of Abderakham was also a sideways swipe at Moscow/Muscovites, the way that political satire uses the "other" including animals.

[rg]

w/ the exception of Fokine's CHOPINIANA - in Vaganova's 'version' - and a seemingly free-form DYING SWAN, Fokine's works were little seen in Soviet Russia.
an 'unusual' version of PETROUCHKA was around, fitfully, and a sometime attempt to stage EGYPTIAN NIGHTS and SPECTRE DE LA ROSE, as well as, perhaps even, EROS, can be found when reading about Soviet ballet.
it would seem to have been largely the efforts of Andris Liepa, in concert with Isabel Fokine, which brought Fokine's works, in I.Fokine's 'versions,' back to Russian soil in the 1990s.

[canbelto]

I think the devil is in the details with something like Raymonda. If Abderakhman was represented as someone exotic, a kind of foil for Jean de Brienne, and if there was a hint that Raymonda was simultaneously attracted to and afraid of this Saracen knight, then I would not have found the Bolshoi presentation so offensive. But the fact is he was represented as a total crazy lunatic clown, and Raymonda acted like he had rabies in the Bolshoi HD performance. That's making the story both less nuanced and more offensive.

It's sort of like the "blackface" in old movies. I don't find Fred Astaire's blackface number offensive because it seemed to me he was paying homage to the strong tradition of African American tap dancers. Today is it un-PC? Yes. But it's not offensive. However, something like Birth of a Nation is just sort of disgusting from a modern viewpoint because of its presentation.

[Pamela Moberg]

All this talk about Raymonda inspired me to take out my old DVD with Bessmertnova and Gediminas Taranda. I just love it, the music is just to my taste - yet it must be said that Mme.
Bessmertnova might be a tad old for this. She was a wonderful dancer, and I imagine that one would not have thought of her age viewing from a theater seat, on DVD it does get more noticeable. And I love Taranda, that guy just appeals to me and I have masses of DVDs from his entire career.

Of course, the story might not be absolutely PC, I do agree with some posters' views. By the same token, there are so many fairy tales and old classics that are not PC at all, so why bother, sit back and enjoy and listen to the music - one cannot analyze everything to bits.