28 replies to this topic

[puppytreats]

Youtube seems to have so many fans, but I find the experience of watching snippets to be very unfulfilling.  I am grateful for what it provides, but dissatisfied with the quality, insufficient indexing, and limited scope of clips on youtube.  I think an online library of performed ballets, lectures, workshops, and classes would improve attendance.

[Simon G]

puppytreats, on 25 August 2011 - 12:43 PM, said:

Youtube seems to have so many fans, but I find the experience of watching snippets to be very unfulfilling.  I am grateful for what it provides, but dissatisfied with the quality, insufficient indexing, and limited scope of clips on youtube.  I think an online library of performed ballets, lectures, workshops, and classes would improve attendance.

Youtube is the antithesis of what dance is about. Live performance, a video will never give anything but a vague impression however it's useful as a point of reference, especially for dance history and there's actually a great deal more available than you'd think on youtube, you just have to know how to search.

There are actually many online libraries and resources for dance online. Certain choreographers' work, however, is rights protected and can't legally be put online, the problem isn't with there not being the resources, the crisis facing dance attendance is far more involved and complicated.

Stories such as the Korean ballet for the homeless is nice, sure, but it's not going to bring in new audience members to an expensive art form which most of the public feels no connection or relevance to. Also Korea isn't a world ballet centre they do however have a couple of nice companies.

[puppytreats]

Simon G, on 25 August 2011 - 02:23 PM, said:

puppytreats, on 25 August 2011 - 12:43 PM, said:

Youtube seems to have so many fans, but I find the experience of watching snippets to be very unfulfilling.  I am grateful for what it provides, but dissatisfied with the quality, insufficient indexing, and limited scope of clips on youtube.  I think an online library of performed ballets, lectures, workshops, and classes would improve attendance.

Youtube is the antithesis of what dance is about. Live performance, a video will never give anything but a vague impression however it's useful as a point of reference, especially for dance history and there's actually a great deal more available than you'd think on youtube, you just have to know how to search.

There are actually many online libraries and resources for dance online. Certain choreographers' work, however, is rights protected and can't legally be put online, the problem isn't with there not being the resources, the crisis facing dance attendance is far more involved and complicated.

Stories such as the Korean ballet for the homeless is nice, sure, but it's not going to bring in new audience members to an expensive art form which most of the public feels no connection or relevance to. Also Korea isn't a world ballet centre they do however have a couple of nice companies.

The performances and works are not legally put online because the owners of the rights choose to prohibit it, thinking this will enhance monetary value.  Rarity makes certain things more valuable, but hoarding rights and limiting access may need to be reconsidered.  On the other hand, perhaps some in our society seek to limit access to the arts to an elite, select few, returning ballet to a court activity.

The point about the homeless in Korea was about the value of dance and access to this knowledge.  Enhanced awareness of this value and other efforts to increase exposure to dance could lead to greater interest in the art form and a more widespread belief in its relevance.

A tutorial about the great deal more that you indicate is available online would be helpful and appreciated!

[Simon G]

Quote

The performances and works are not legally put online because the owners of the rights choose to prohibit it, thinking this will enhance monetary value.  Rarity makes certain things more valuable, but hoarding rights and limiting access may need to be reconsidered.  On the other hand, perhaps some in our society seek to limit access to the arts to an elite, select few, returning ballet to a court activity.

This is actually a very contentious issue, in the most notable cases such as Balanchine the choreography is actually part of a licensed trademark and copyrighted and belongs to the Balanchine trust and foundation, they release DVDs or excerpts to promote the work but the revenue collected from the work goes to further the work and cause of NYCB, the Balanchine Trust and Foundation. There's much on the internet but technically the work of Ashton, Macmillan and every modern choreographer who has set up or has a foundation set up to protect the rights and reproduction of their art and the format of their choreography are completely within their right to ensure that illegal reproduction and distribution of their work doesn't take place. Only the Balanchine trust is absolutely ruthless in ensuring unauthorised reproduction of the work, and while I can see the argument that putting videos into the public domain on sharing sites does potentially bring ballet to a wider audience (and I say potentially as no one without an interest in ballet is likely to look at these videos) the fact remains that authorised DVDs do give revenue directly to the performers, the choreographers company, the choreographers foundation. Indeed why should it be uncool to share films, music etc via illegal sharing sites yet ballet is fine?

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The point about the homeless in Korea was about the value of dance and access to this knowledge.  Enhanced awareness of this value and other efforts to increase exposure to dance could lead to greater interest in the art form and a more widespread belief in its relevance.

I got the point, I just don't agree that it will do anything to incite greater interest in ballet. It's an amusing little news item, designed to give people warm fuzzies at the incongruity of the homeless doing plies and while I'm sure meant a great deal to the homeless participating will do very little to instill interest in a new generation of ballet goers, certainly not when they see the prices of an average ballet performance.

The topic of this thread was about initally dancers marketing themselves, but that's very different from dance companies marketing dancers and whether or not a dancer is considered marketable by the company.

Quote

A tutorial about the great deal more that you indicate is available online would be helpful and appreciated!

This is a really really big question, what exactly would you like to know? That's the great difficulty I have in answering your questions sometimes PT, the answers are pretty huge what direction would you like to start in?

You could start with these sites:

http://balanchine.or...hine/index.html

http://www.ashtonarchive.com/

http://www.kennethmacmillan.com/

http://www.antonytudor.org/index1.html

http://www.roh.org.u...llet/index.aspx

http://www.the-balle...ssianballet.php

http://www.theforsythecompany.com/

[puppytreats]

Thank you for the links.  I had been to some, but not most, of them and rarely think to explore them.  I have been enjoying the sites quite a bit.

[puppytreats]

Simon G, on 25 August 2011 - 02:23 PM, said:

there's actually a great deal more available than you'd think on youtube, you just have to know how to search.

Do you generally frame your initial inquiries in a very general or very specific manner?

[Simon G]

puppytreats, on 27 August 2011 - 12:25 PM, said:

Simon G, on 25 August 2011 - 02:23 PM, said:

there's actually a great deal more available than you'd think on youtube, you just have to know how to search.

Do you generally frame your initial inquiries in a very general or very specific manner?

The problem with youtube is precisely that, if you're too general you get absolutely everything they have to offer, so putting in Rose Adagio you'll get every Rose adagio going from every company.

Probably you're best bet is to research a company, and certain dancers or choreographers then put in a search directly with key words ie "Ashton, Fonteyn" "Lynn Seymour" "sylvie Guillem" "wiliam forsythe" etc

If you're specific about a certain choreographer or company you'll generally get results which directly link to that.

However, you'll get very little on Balanchine as the Balanchine Trust regularly hunts down and removes all films of his work shared on sites.

[smokeyjoe]

I see recently a big increase in self-marketing of dancers. Many companies specially Europe are too focused on marketing their performances and companies and lack in promoting their dancers. As the subsidies are being cut across the board it becomes increasingly more important to step up the marketing efforts specially to cover the big gap in promoting individuals. If the audience identifies strongly with certain dancers they are much more likely to purchase tickets.
Many companies put up the castings for performances in the las minute. That makes it impossible to know who you are going to see when you are buying your ticket.
With ever increasing influence of social media it's much easier for dancers to gain exposure. But it's just part of it. Ballet gained a lot of exposure since Black Swan movie but the exposure in massmedia comparing to other artforms is still insignificant.
In all honesty a very small amount of the actual audience knows the ins and outs of ballet so if they are being told that the dancer/performance they are watching is exceptional they are approaching it with different eyes.
I would love to see and hear much more about my favorite dancers no matter facebook,twitter,youtube or TV.

Conclusion self-promotion of dancers or marketing efforts of companies can only be beneficial in making ballet the artform we all love so much more popular.

So please dancers promote yourself it's important for your future as well as for the future of ballet!!!

[Simon G]

smokeyjoe, on 28 August 2011 - 02:41 AM, said:

I see recently a big increase in self-marketing of dancers. Many companies specially Europe are too focused on marketing their performances and companies and lack in promoting their dancers. As the subsidies are being cut across the board it becomes increasingly more important to step up the marketing efforts specially to cover the big gap in promoting individuals. If the audience identifies strongly with certain dancers they are much more likely to purchase tickets.
Many companies put up the castings for performances in the las minute. That makes it impossible to know who you are going to see when you are buying your ticket.
With ever increasing influence of social media it's much easier for dancers to gain exposure. But it's just part of it. Ballet gained a lot of exposure since Black Swan movie but the exposure in massmedia comparing to other artforms is still insignificant.
In all honesty a very small amount of the actual audience knows the ins and outs of ballet so if they are being told that the dancer/performance they are watching is exceptional they are approaching it with different eyes.
I would love to see and hear much more about my favorite dancers no matter facebook,twitter,youtube or TV.

Conclusion self-promotion of dancers or marketing efforts of companies can only be beneficial in making ballet the artform we all love so much more popular.

So please dancers promote yourself it's important for your future as well as for the future of ballet!!!

And what if the AD in question has no desire to market the dancer who markets themself?

[Helene]

Simon G, on 28 August 2011 - 10:24 AM, said:

And what if the AD in question has no desire to market the dancer who markets themself?

It seems to me that depending on the tone the self marketing takes, the dancer may have made him- or herself more opportunities, if s/he feels s/he is getting nowhere fast with his or her career or wants other options.   A dancer who can bring a ready-made fan base may be more valuable to a smaller company, for example, than an unknown name, all things being equal.

[angelica]

puppytreats, on 25 August 2011 - 12:43 PM, said:

Youtube seems to have so many fans, but I find the experience of watching snippets to be very unfulfilling.  I am grateful for what it provides, but dissatisfied with the quality, insufficient indexing, and limited scope of clips on youtube.  I think an online library of performed ballets, lectures, workshops, and classes would improve attendance.

Without addressing the larger scope of your suggestions, which have real merit, I will say that I have enjoyed numerous hours watching clips under "Vaganova Ballet Academy" in all the different years of study, as well as clips under "Paris Opera Ballet School," as they take you behind the scenes to institutions where you could never go on your own. To see the children develop over the years is truly inspiring IMHO. Although in the Vaganova clips it has been suggested that because (1) the teacher isn't seen at all and the students just know what to do, and also (2) the girls look absolutely terrified, that these may be their final examinations of the year. I'd be happy if I could dance like the worst of them!

[Tapfan]

Quote

This is actually a very contentious issue, in the most notable cases such as Balanchine the choreography is actually part of a licensed trademark and copyrighted and belongs to the Balanchine trust and foundation, they release DVDs or excerpts to promote the work but the revenue collected from the work goes to further the work and cause of NYCB, the Balanchine Trust and Foundation. There's much on the internet but technically the work of Ashton, Macmillan and every modern choreographer who has set up or has a foundation set up to protect the rights and reproduction of their art and the format of their choreography are completely within their right to ensure that illegal reproduction and distribution of their work doesn't take place. Only the Balanchine trust is absolutely ruthless in ensuring unauthorised reproduction of the work, and while I can see the argument that putting videos into the public domain on sharing sites does potentially bring ballet to a wider audience (and I say potentially as no one without an interest in ballet is likely to look at these videos) the fact remains that authorised DVDs do give revenue directly to the performers, the choreographers company, the choreographers foundation. Indeed why should it be uncool to share films, music etc via illegal sharing sites yet ballet is fine?

Can there be no middle ground between the total prohibition of online access to certain works and performances by heavy-handed foundations and screwing choreographers and performers out of revenue they've rightfully earned?

As a ballet neophyte, I find that all primers on classical dance point to Balanchine as one of the pillars of the art form in the 20th century.  I'd like to see some samples of his work but the Balanchine trust won't let me.

[kfw]

Tapfan, on 14 September 2011 - 04:38 PM, said:

As a ballet neophyte, I find that all primers on classical dance point to Balanchine as one of the pillars of the art form in the 20th century.  I'd like to see some samples of his work but the Balanchine trust won't let me.

You can find short (very short) clips on New York City Ballet's site. Here's the latest, excerpts of and remarks on Jewels.

[Jack Reed]

I think the best presentations of Balanchine's ballets to be seen today are the films and videos of the performances he supervised, but they are, as you say, Tapfan, difficult to get to see.  Besides things like the NYCB video kfw linked to, there are some short preview clips of his ballets on Miami City Ballet's YouTube channel worth a glance, but more satisfying to watch than these, here's the Suzanne Farrell Ballet's program of a few years ago.  (You may notice that all four of these sources - the recordings of performances Balanchine supervised, seldom on the Internet, but which do sometimes turn up somewhere; clips from the New York City Ballet of today; MCB; and TSFB, differ at least a little in the way the ballets are danced.)