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To dance it or not to dance it......if can't be danced as it was meant to..or as we know it..


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Poll: Trinidad Sevillano's Spessivtseva's Pas Seul (16 member(s) have cast votes)

Are you satisfied with the whole pas after the missing sautÚs?

  1. Yes (12 votes [75.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 75.00%

  2. No (4 votes [25.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

Vote Guests cannot vote

#61 Paul Parish

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Posted 14 September 2011 - 07:52 PM

Very long thread, and much that;s not about Sevillano....

I'm with those who're grateful to have been introduced to Sevillano, who seems a dancer of very great talent, modesty, imagination, delicacy, modesty, and charm. The pirouettes in attitude, which she turns superlatively well, are all the evidence I need of sturdy technique, and the little dance she makes out of the pizzicato section is I find wonderfully Giselle-like, modest and dancerly, and just as pretty as the ballonnes. After all, Giselle loves to DANCE, she's not someone who goes to class to 'do ballet."

The diagonal that Christian mentions is something the Russian companies never do -- Bolshoi and Kirov ballerinas do a manege of pique turns, usually VERY fast, and usually with one hand holding the skirt. All the versions staged by Freddie Franklin and I suppose Ballets-Ruses derived, have the diagonal, which is considerably more difficult and not IMHO lovelier.

"A little learning is a dangerous thing." The toe hops are not iconic there are many ways of doing them. Look around, you'll see them with rond de jambes, straight ballonnes, ballonnes alternating with 4 little hops in attitude devant.... The music is not wonderful, it's just a nice little interpolation by Burgmuller.

#62 California

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Posted 16 September 2011 - 12:11 PM

The diagonal that Christian mentions is something the Russian companies never do -- Bolshoi and Kirov ballerinas do a manege of pique turns, usually VERY fast, and usually with one hand holding the skirt.


Here's a clip of Osipova doing the hops (at 1:21), while guesting in Siberia.



Here's a clip of Osipova in another Russian production; the hops start at 4:07:


Did she add them because of Western influences?? Do other Russian women do the hops now, too?

#63 dirac

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 09:20 PM

Giving this thread a bump in the hope someone will respond to California's question.

#64 cubanmiamiboy

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 11:28 PM


The diagonal that Christian mentions is something the Russian companies never do -- Bolshoi and Kirov ballerinas do a manege of pique turns, usually VERY fast, and usually with one hand holding the skirt.


Here's a clip of Osipova doing the hops (at 1:21), while guesting in Siberia.



Here's a clip of Osipova in another Russian production; the hops start at 4:07:


Did she add them because of Western influences?? Do other Russian women do the hops now, too?


California...there are two diagonals being discussed here, actually one right after the other one. The sautes on pointe are done by all ballerinas, both in Russia and the Western world. The other diagonal, the one I am so fond of and only survives in a handful of companies-(mainly after stagins done by Dolin and Alonso)-is the one that concludes Giselle's Pas Seul, when she runs back to her starting point to her back left wing and starts a madly fast diagonal of pirouette/passe/chainee. It's generally believed that this diagonal was incorporated by Spessivtseva.

#65 Paul Parish

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Posted 16 October 2011 - 11:29 PM

Sorry, California, I need to "disambiguate" -- I was not referring to the diagonal of toe-hops, but to the VERY END of the variation, which in Ballets-Russes-style settings is a difficult diagonal of pique turns alternating with emboites on pointe;

as seen here, 1:14-end, danced by ALicia Markova in 1951



it's THAT diagonal that hte Russians don't do, but instead do a circle of very fast pique turns holding the skirt -- as in the clip of Osipova you posted (which is lovely, by the way, THANK YOU, I've never seen that one before, it's simple, delicate).

#66 leonid17

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 12:01 AM

This debate reminds me of the debate over differences in one of Albrecht's solo. I just did a little googling and discovered that a full decade ago this discussion board was debating Nureyev's entrechats sixes vs. Baryshikov's flying brises:
http://balletalert.i...hats-or-brises/

I guess because I've seen the tape of Baryshnikov's version so much (the 1977 Live from Lincoln Center, with Makarova, later released on VHS) that I am jolted when I see Albrecht's doing something different.

I can't find a clip of Nureyev, but here's Baryshnikov (at 2:02):


I don't think I could find the source back, but I remember an interview with Baryshnikov right after his defection when he asked if the brises were "too much," suggesting he knew he was changing the usual choreography. (Indeed, it appears not all of Albrecht's solos appeared in the original versions.)

I just found a clip of Erik Bruhn from 1969. Perhaps this is what Nureyev did? The same passage starts at about 2:20:



Rudolf Nureyev was highly influenced by Erik Bruhn and changed his variations in the second act Giselle seemingly
under Bruhn's tutelage or was it vice versa?

In this film and from memory, the first two variations are virtually identical to what Nureyev danced although I do not remember him exactly matching the 32 entrechat six of Bruhn, but Nureyev's feet, were more beautifully stretched.

The next two danced sequences were not performed in the same choreography, but the final dance sequence was.

#67 cubanmiamiboy

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 05:12 AM

I've always been under the impression that many changes and substitutions and bravura additions have been Soviet-born, being instituted by ether Rudy or Misha post defection. About Albrecht duality of steps during his pre-floor collapse # 2 all could add, if this is of any relevance, is that as long as Dolin was still visiting Havana and restaging and refreshing with Alonso the ballet, neither step was ever part of the section. At this point Albrecht usually gets out and keeps circling the Willis territory asking for mercy, and then dances a little in between the begging, but always in circles with a heavy load of miming until Giselle gets out to join him in the diagonal of little traveling lifts in arabesque. As long as 1980, when Alonso danced with Vladimir Vasiliev-(and Dolin again coached her)-he didn't do neither brises nor entrechats. He was coached then by Ulanova, but they decided to follow the Dolin-Markova version once again.

#68 Mme. Hermine

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 06:37 AM

I've always been under the impression that many changes and substitutions and bravura additions have been Soviet-born, being instituted by ether Rudy or Misha post defection. About Albrecht duality of steps during his pre-floor collapse # 2 all could add, if this is of any relevance, is that as long as Dolin was still visiting Havana and restaging and refreshing with Alonso the ballet, neither step was ever part of the section. At this point Albrecht usually gets out and keeps circling the Willis territory asking for mercy, and then dances a little in between the begging, but always in circles with a heavy load of miming until Giselle gets out to join him in the diagonal of little traveling lifts in arabesque. As long as 1980, when Alonso danced with Vladimir Vasiliev-(and Dolin again coached her)-he didn't do neither brises nor entrechats. He was coached then by Ulanova, but they decided to follow the Dolin-Markova version once again.



#69 leonid17

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 07:37 AM


I've always been under the impression that many changes and substitutions and bravura additions have been Soviet-born, being instituted by ether Rudy or Misha post defection. About Albrecht duality of steps during his pre-floor collapse # 2 all could add, if this is of any relevance, is that as long as Dolin was still visiting Havana and restaging and refreshing with Alonso the ballet, neither step was ever part of the section. At this point Albrecht usually gets out and keeps circling the Willis territory asking for mercy, and then dances a little in between the begging, but always in circles with a heavy load of miming until Giselle gets out to join him in the diagonal of little traveling lifts in arabesque. As long as 1980, when Alonso danced with Vladimir Vasiliev-(and Dolin again coached her)-he didn't do neither brises nor entrechats. He was coached then by Ulanova, but they decided to follow the Dolin-Markova version once again.



I cannot see who is dancing but if it Miss Sevillano it is a very laboured effort at times, lacking flow and interspersed with pirouettes totally out of keeping with a Romantic ballet.
Sadly I remember her in London where she was extremely popular as a much better artist.

#70 Natalia

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 08:29 AM

I voted "no." Just as weak as the 1978 Don Q pdd during an ABT Live from Lincoln Center telecast in which Makarova replaced Kitris's 32 fouettes in the coda with pique turns around the stage or something similar. Do not replace the iconic steps unless it's with something even more difficult/grander/showier, e.g., Olesya Novikova replacing Raymonda's diagonal of hops on pointe in Act 2 with hops in entrechats-quatre.

#71 Paul Parish

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 09:27 AM

Natalia, I agree with you in part, but would say that in "new" steps, the ENERGY that comes across has to be greater than or equal to the iconic combination's. With respect to codas -- which is where the fouettes always go -- they are mini-finales and as a general rule must be corruscating, so the substitution must be dazzling.

But dazzle isn't always the quality that's wanted. In other cases, there could be another aspect of the ballet that the artists want to bring to he fore -- some aspect of the character, or a heightening of a mood that's NOT a brio-mood, or some aspect of hte dancer that is telling and appropriate. For example, Markova was astonishingly adept at stillness, and her version of Giselle's solo is remarkable for the piques in arabesque in which she perches suddenly, like a bird lighting on a branch, in a perfectly placed arabesque. She could stop and start -- Denby noticed this -- with more clarity than any other dancer of her generation. And clips still show this.

Mme Alonso also had this gift of stillness to an astonishing degree (and she has said that when she was young, she modelled her performances on Markova's) -- it's a feature of Romantic style, most noticeable perhaps in Pas de QUatre. Osipova's lovely arabesques in hte clip posted by California have a lovely arrested quality to them, but she does not produce them as sharply as Markova, nor does she attack the attitude turn with the alacrity of Markova -- it's really stunning, Markova's attitude turns are launched and sailing before you can see the impetus.

#72 Helene

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 09:28 AM

I voted "no." Just as weak as the 1978 Don Q pdd during an ABT Live from Lincoln Center telecast in which Makarova replaced Kitris's 32 fouettes in the coda with pique turns around the stage or something similar.

If it's good enough for Maya Plitsetskaya, it's good enough for me ;)

#73 Natalia

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 09:45 AM

Not for me. :) Lovely Dying Swan and a powerful presence, in general..but Maya was hardly a paradigm of technical excellence. Ever.

#74 cubanmiamiboy

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Posted 17 October 2011 - 01:28 PM

Not for me. :) Lovely Dying Swan and a powerful presence, in general..but Maya was hardly a paradigm of technical excellence. Ever.


Time to confess we're both traveling in the same boat here, Natasha...

#75 cubanmiamiboy

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Posted 20 October 2011 - 12:42 AM

Sorry, California, I need to "disambiguate" -- I was not referring to the diagonal of toe-hops, but to the VERY END of the variation, which in Ballets-Russes-style settings is a difficult diagonal of pique turns alternating with emboites on pointe;

as seen here, 1:14-end, danced by ALicia Markova in 1951



it's THAT diagonal that hte Russians don't do...


The diagonal done by;

Miss S.


Miss F.


and Miss V.


:clapping:


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