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To dance it or not to dance it......if can't be danced as it was meant to..or as we know it..


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Poll: Trinidad Sevillano's Spessivtseva's Pas Seul (16 member(s) have cast votes)

Are you satisfied with the whole pas after the missing sautÚs?

  1. Yes (12 votes [75.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 75.00%

  2. No (4 votes [25.00%] - View)

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

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#31 cubanmiamiboy

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 04:18 PM

If the whole purpose of this thread was to say you think Sevillano is crap. Just come out and say it


"Crap"...? Nope. That was not my intention. Wrong guessing, Simon.

"The Whole History of ballet choreography" that's a rather subjective and bathetic claim and implies you know every school and piece and choreographer and their work over several hundred years, all contemporary ballet choreographers and have done an academic comparison.



I know nothing...and I don't imply nothing, Simon...I believe I used the word "probably" to denote just that..that this affirmation points to a PROBABILITY, not to an absolute truth.

...there's ample to damn Alonso as a deluded blind old woman who got it into her head that Giselle is Baby Jane Hudson with brittle bone disease


Wow.

But let's not go there


No...better not, Simon.

#32 Simon G

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 04:24 PM

Okay then, but then what's this thread about? To take out of context one moment in time from one performace of a dancer from countless performances is meaningless. Just as if I were to take that video of Alonso at 78 dancing Giselle. But I know that's not Alonso, just as I know that's not Sevillano.

To answer yes I prefer the hops to the the pique, pose pas de cheval Sevillano performed here, but I know that Sevillano performed the choreography as is on every occasion I saw her dance Giselle, so for whatever reason she subsitituted a different passage here and may very well have worked it out before hand for whatever reason, but it's not her entire career nor her entire history of Giselle but one moment which had been recorded.

#33 cubanmiamiboy

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 04:38 PM

... what's this thread about?


About my curiosity on how do my fellow Bt'rs feel about this substitution...one that is quite rare.

#34 Alexandra

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 04:38 PM

I'd agree that one clip doesn't prove anything about any dancer, and I take Simon's point that this was probably an off night -- I also saw Sevillano many times (not as often as I would have liked!) but she was certainly technically competent (and, for me, a magical performer). The larger point of what one can change -- I think that's why solos were always called "variations." There are dancers who packed their variations in their suitcases with their costumes and it was expected. The St. Petersburg audience wanted to see Legnani's fouettes, and she was happy to perform them. I think this post straddled the line. I'm sure Cristian didn't mean to insult a dancer, and his question was about whether we thought the variation was acceptable -- but in this case, we'd need to see more of that particular dancer to know whether this was her version or a one-off.

It's the You Tube Curse. If it's on film, it's Truth. But sometimes it's not.

I think for the balance of the discussion, we should steer away from imputing motives and stick to the idea of what can be changed. Simon, I loved your account of Sevillano and am very glad to have it here. She's a dancer who did not become the star many of us thought she would be. I first saw her at 15, I think (?) as Ashton's Juliet, and I was stunned not only by the quality of her dancing and her acting, but that she was the only one of the then-LFB ballerinas who looked as though she were dancing ASHTON, with Ashton's musicality and Ashton's lines.

#35 Simon G

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 04:55 PM


... what's this thread about?


About my curiosity on how do my fellow Bt'rs feel about this substitution...one that is quite rare.



I'm sorry I insulted Alonso Cristian, I know she's very special to you. But that's the thing here, for whatever reason this interpolation on Sevillano's part was a one off, why she did it we'll never know, but she was a very special dancer, who had a pretty horrendous time of it and as Alexandra said never became the star everyone was sure she'd become.

I know you mean nothing underhand by the youtube comparison clips, but I have to admit I hate youtube for dance as it destroys the visceral thrill and immediacy of what ballet and live performance is about and sadly in the case of that Sevillano clip ill serves her legacy and ability. Which is why I pointed to several clips where she was more on form. Likewise those awful clips of an anorexic Kirkland at Wolftrap unable to complete even half her fouette coda or complete the little hops back in arabesque in the Don Quixote PDD make one strain to see what she was all about, but that brief clip with piano of her in Giselle let you know in a minute how great she was.

But please believe me Sevillano was something incredible when she was on, she shared the stage with some incredible virtuosos, of the three Schaufuss brought in Healy & Hogard, his baby ballerinas, Sevillano was the weakest technically but the only one who was considered a real ballerina. It is a real shame you never saw her perform a Giselle, with hops on pointe, at a live performance. She was fantastic.

#36 cubanmiamiboy

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Posted 06 August 2011 - 05:12 PM

I'm sorry I insulted Alonso Cristian, I know she's very special to you.


She is indeed. No hard feelings, Simon. :tiphat:

#37 JMcN

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 12:16 AM

I've seen quite a few performances of different productions of Giselle over the past quarter century where the hops have been replaced with a different variation. It is the overall performance that matters to me - not the hops.

Trinidad Sevillano is an exceptional artiste and I have been thrilled to watch these Youtube clips as reminders of the days when I was able to watch her frequently.

#38 diane

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 02:43 AM

For some reason I doubt Sevillano acted out of a moment's injury...it looks to me as if the substitution had been carefully choreographed and rehearsed in advance. This is very different from a "night off".


In my experience (as an old, ex-dancer), many dancers will work out an alternative version of something weeks in advance when (notice I did not say, "if") they have been fighting with some injury or an unstable-joint or something; especially if a gruelling run of performances is coming up.

One never knows how the body is going to be "on the night", and esp. late in a season everything hurts and one does not necessarily want to risk a potentially careeer-ending injury for a few steps which could have been altered.

Therefore, yes, this probably was carefully choreographed; but for use "in an emergency".
Dancers almost always have a Plan B, you know.
We may look spontaneous, but that is part of the illusion; just as it should _look_ effortless. :wink:

-d-

#39 bart

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 03:48 AM

Therefore, yes, this probably was carefully choreographed; but for use "in an emergency".
Dancers almost always have a Plan B, you know.

Like decisions about what to do about leaving the 32 fouettes prematurely. Most seem to do what Balanchine did, move more or less smoothly into a series of pique pirouettes.

About this particular point in Giselle. Has anyone seen OTHER examples of dancers choosing not to do the hops on point? What did they do?

It's always seemed to me -- a non-dancer -- that it's not the hops that are so difficult. It is the need to counterpoint them with that lovely upper body movement. Most dancers I've seen manage to hop. Many do NOT manage to make the port de bras look like it is the the easiest thing in the world to do ... WHILE hopping.

#40 diane

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 04:16 AM

^^ True! The hops themselves are not "difficult"; it is the coordination of upper body, etc. And a reason for changing the hops is often because of some ankle-issue or something else in the foot, wherein repeated pounding would just make it worse for the rest of the performance.


-d-

#41 atm711

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 07:18 AM

I have never judged an 'Aurora' by how long she can hold a balance, an Odile by how many turns she can spin, nor a Giselle's hops. My only regret in seeing the clips of Trinidad Sevillano is that I never saw her 'live'. I can only marvel at her womanly form and the beauty of her lush port de bras---a welcome antidote to today's prevalence of twiggy arms. Unfortunately, she was born too late---she is really a product of the 40's and 50's.

#42 Helene

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 08:04 AM



One never knows how the body is going to be "on the night", and esp. late in a season everything hurts and one does not necessarily want to risk a potentially careeer-ending injury for a few steps which could have been altered.


PNB Ballet Master Otto Neubert, fielding a question in an Q&A about setting tempi for individual dancers for the recent "Giselle", answered to the effect that even when dancers had input, the dancer who asked for a certain tempo on Wednesday morning was a different dancer than the one onstage Saturday night. Energy, physical condition, adrenalin, pacing are only a few of the things that can impact a dancer from day to day.

#43 Helene

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 08:07 AM

About this particular point in Giselle. Has anyone seen OTHER examples of dancers choosing not to do the hops on point? What did they do?

JMcN answered above. You may have missed the post.

#44 cubanmiamiboy

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 11:36 AM

For some reason I doubt Sevillano acted out of a moment's injury...it looks to me as if the substitution had been carefully choreographed and rehearsed in advance. This is very different from a "night off".


In my experience (as an old, ex-dancer), many dancers will work out an alternative version of something weeks in advance when (notice I did not say, "if") they have been fighting with some injury or an unstable-joint or something; especially if a gruelling run of performances is coming up.

One never knows how the body is going to be "on the night", and esp. late in a season everything hurts and one does not necessarily want to risk a potentially careeer-ending injury for a few steps which could have been altered.

Therefore, yes, this probably was carefully choreographed; but for use "in an emergency".
Dancers almost always have a Plan B, you know.
We may look spontaneous, but that is part of the illusion; just as it should _look_ effortless. :wink:

-d-


Deinitely a very logic argument. Thanks Diane for offering the insider's input... :flowers:

#45 Jane Simpson

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Posted 07 August 2011 - 12:49 PM

jane, i thought she had also danced ondine? but i don't recall that she was a regular member of the company.


MH, I can't find any reference to her doing Ondine, or - so far - anyone who can remember her doing it. Of course that doesn't mean it didn't happen, so I'll keep asking, but I'd be surprised if such a potentially memorable piece of casting had made so little impact!


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