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Dancers Who SmokeWhy do they put their life at RISK?


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#31 dirac

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 11:21 AM

Most if not all of the indoor bans are justifiable but these open air ones cross the line. I think it's questionable to call on the powers of the state to protect you from the occasional whiff, even the occasional big whiff. One of the hazards of democracy is putting up with some of your fellow citizens' bad habits in public places.

#32 bart

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 01:45 PM

I see both sides on the matter of banning smoking outdoors. The "second-hand smoke argument" seems to be a "smoke screen," trivial and insubstantial, for such bans.

But there are considerations which might be seen as more reasonable and legitimate when making public policy.

One such reason is the question of litter -- butts. packets, etc. -- and their aesthetic and environmental impact on public spaces. This is not a small matter. Ask anyone in charge of maintaining these facilities.

Another has to do with long-term public health costs, which end up being shared by everyone, smokers and non-smokers alike.

Of course, smoking on the beach will not of itself lead to health problems. One can argue, however, that permitting it in public parks -- even in limited smoking areas -- has the effect of giving public approval to behavior that has harmful, long-term, and costly public (not just private) consequences.

#33 Simon G

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 01:52 PM

Another has to do with long-term public health costs, which end up being shared by everyone, smokers and non-smokers alike.

Of course, smoking on the beach will not of itself lead to health problems. One can argue, however, that permitting it in public parks -- even in limited smoking areas -- has the effect of giving public approval to behavior that has harmful, long-term, and costly public (not just private) consequences.



Bart,

On the question of health costs it's actually a non brainer, the costs to the health services of smoking related ailments is actually a fraction of the revenue taken by the treasury from tax on tabacco, Government makes a lot from people dropping dead, far far far more than it does from caring for them, indeed if the treasury was to lose the income from tabacco tax they'd be in trouble.

On the question of public approval, this is where I have a real problem, even though I'm no longer a smoker, smoking is a personal choice and the notion that the public must be so censorious or didactic makes me uneasy, if you don't smoke watching smokers won't make you start. I mean how far underground do you want to push it? what's next Smoking Speakeasys a la Chicago during prohibition? In which case I want to be the emphesemic Al Capone, the Godfather of Nicotine. I always thought I could make it big in organised crime, if someone here would like to be my moll?

#34 Helene

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 02:40 PM

One of the hazards of democracy is putting up with some of your fellow citizens' bad habits in public places.

I've lived in major cities for more than three decades, and I've put up with many bad habits of my fellow citizens in public places. I'm just glad that legislators agree with me for the most part on this issue and continue to be more stringent.

#35 bart

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 02:40 PM

On the question of health costs it's actually a non brainer, the costs to the health services of smoking related ailments is actually a fraction of the revenue taken by the treasury from tax on tabacco, Government makes a lot from people dropping dead, far far far more than it does from caring for them, indeed if the treasury was to lose the income from tobacco tax they'd be in trouble.

Agreed, up to a point, though I'd like to see a financial statement or cost-benefit analysis.

You are leaving out the possibility that some political groups in a position to influence policy in some localities and states genuinely wish to reduce tobacco consumption.

I know I'm playing devil's advocate here, but it seems to me that controversy is more complicated than it appears at first sight.

(So is the topic of this thread: "Dancers Who Smoke.") :wink:

#36 dirac

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 02:45 PM

Of course, smoking on the beach will not of itself lead to health problems. One can argue, however, that permitting it in public parks -- even in limited smoking areas -- has the effect of giving public approval to behavior that has harmful, long-term, and costly public (not just private) consequences.


I'm sorry, bart, this whole "public approval" business sounds dicey to me. I do take your point, however, - better to be forthright and say "You can't do this because we don't like it," rather than concoct dubious scientific rationales.

Agreed, up to a point, though I'd like to see a financial statement or cost-benefit analysis.


I think such a cost benefit analysis would show that smokers who die earlier than usual save us a lot of money thereby, but even if it didn't, does that mean you have the right to forbid a smoker to sit on a bench under a tree in the park and have a cigarette? Also, how far would you go? Should the fellow be jailed? He's costing us a lot of money, drat him.

#37 Helene

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 04:42 PM

As far as the term "happiness", I was replying to your use of the the term. You were no longer "happy" when you had to pass through the mushroom cloud. It must have been very upsetting.

:wub: That may teach me not to try to be so cute...

I should have written, "I left the theater happy as a clam, but then someone lit up a cigarette, and I was suddenly dizzy with nausea."

Edited to add:

To address the original question in the topic subtitle, I don't think dancers risk their lives by smoking for different reasons than smokers in any other professions. My question would be, why would dancers, athletes, or anyone else who makes his or her living through strenuous physical activity voluntarily decrease lung capacity, make breathing more difficult, adversely affect internal organs, and the rash of other things that adversely affect physical achievement, especially when there are so many environmental things that do damage or why make an extremely hard thing even harder?

I can do what I do under extremely limited physical circumstances, but I don't dance for a living.

#38 Simon G

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 05:29 PM

In order to bring this convo full circle, here's a video of Marie Agnes Gillot puffing away like a chimney whilst onstage no less, albeit in Le Jeune homme et La Morte. It comes at the 8:20 mark, I looked closely and YES unlike Clinton she's inhaling.




Impressively, unlike Aurelie Dupont, Nicolas Le Riche declines to join her.

#39 dirac

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 05:43 PM

This is also the ballet that plays under the opening credits of "White Nights" and when we first see Misha it's medium close in and he's....smoking.

My question would be, why would dancers, athletes, or anyone else who makes his or her living through strenuous physical activity voluntarily decrease lung capacity, make breathing more difficult, adversely affect internal organs, and the rash of other things that adversely affect physical achievement, especially when there are so many environmental things that do damage or why make an extremely hard thing even harder?


People do a lot of things that are risky for them in the long run for the sake of short term needs.

This debate isn't new, now that I think about it. There's a scene in The Band Wagon in which Fred Astaire and Cyd Charisse, getting off on the wrong foot, find out that among the many things they don't have in common is smoking. Astaire lights up and offers one to Charisse, who sniffs that she doesn't think dancers should smoke. Later in the movie she bums a cigarette off him.

#40 ksk04

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Posted 21 June 2011 - 06:12 PM

In order to bring this convo full circle, here's a video of Marie Agnes Gillot puffing away like a chimney whilst onstage no less, albeit in Le Jeune homme et La Morte. It comes at the 8:20 mark, I looked closely and YES unlike Clinton she's inhaling.



Impressively, unlike Aurelie Dupont, Nicolas Le Riche declines to join her.



:rofl:

Well Le Riche clearly declines as he had just finished one of his own and is fearing the wrath of the stage manager for putting out another one on the stage flooring. That stuff isn't cheap!

#41 diane

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 01:37 AM

My question would be, why would dancers, athletes, or anyone else who makes his or her living through strenuous physical activity voluntarily decrease lung capacity, make breathing more difficult, adversely affect internal organs, and the rash of other things that adversely affect physical achievement, especially when there are so many environmental things that do damage or why make an extremely hard thing even harder?

I can do what I do under extremely limited physical circumstances, but I don't dance for a living.



:)
People are complex, and dancers are no exception.





-d-

#42 diane

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 01:47 AM

I'll never forget my terror on my very first day of kindergarten. Sensing my fear my mother pressed her pack of Marlboro reds and her zippo lighter into my chubby little hand and told me to wait until break and then share them out amongst all my new friends, she was right, I soon became the most popular pre schooler in juvenile detention. Her heart was in the right place, if nothing else, my dear mama.



Oh, my. :)


Just curious: did you actually start smoking then?

(When still a grade-schooler I remember drawing red circles with a felt-pen around the middle of my dad's cigarettes in an attmept to get him to stop. The anti-smoking ads of the late sixties showed someone doing that, so my little bros and I did it, too. Dad was furious. But, being a medical doctor, he finally decided he could not also be a hypocrit. So he quit.)

-d-

#43 Simon G

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 02:13 AM


I'll never forget my terror on my very first day of kindergarten. Sensing my fear my mother pressed her pack of Marlboro reds and her zippo lighter into my chubby little hand and told me to wait until break and then share them out amongst all my new friends, she was right, I soon became the most popular pre schooler in juvenile detention. Her heart was in the right place, if nothing else, my dear mama.



Oh, my. :)


Just curious: did you actually start smoking then?

(When still a grade-schooler I remember drawing red circles with a felt-pen around the middle of my dad's cigarettes in an attmept to get him to stop. The anti-smoking ads of the late sixties showed someone doing that, so my little bros and I did it, too. Dad was furious. But, being a medical doctor, he finally decided he could not also be a hypocrit. So he quit.)

-d-



No, it wasn't quite that bad, I did go to dance school, first White Lodge, then London Contemporary Dance School where I started smoking at around 16/17, LCDS was very very stressful and it did contribute to my decision, also everyone else smoked so it just seemed natural to start - strangely I had been rabidly anti-smoking prior to that. Though I remember feeling sick to the gills for several weeks while I acclimatised to the air of Marlboro Country. There was tar in them there hills.

#44 Simon G

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Posted 22 June 2011 - 02:16 AM


In order to bring this convo full circle, here's a video of Marie Agnes Gillot puffing away like a chimney whilst onstage no less, albeit in Le Jeune homme et La Morte. It comes at the 8:20 mark, I looked closely and YES unlike Clinton she's inhaling.



Impressively, unlike Aurelie Dupont, Nicolas Le Riche declines to join her.



:rofl:

Well Le Riche clearly declines as he had just finished one of his own and is fearing the wrath of the stage manager for putting out another one on the stage flooring. That stuff isn't cheap!



Maybe Jeune Homme is actually an allegory on the perils of smoking, with La Morte being death by smoking-related causes? The ballet is indeed way existential.

#45 Nanarina

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Posted 24 June 2011 - 03:11 PM


For those really passionate about it anti-smokers, here's a suggestion, work towards getting the cigs made illegal.



Richard,

Are you secretly Rob Reiner? The thing is cigs will never be illegal as long as tax revenue is there to be garnered and indeed why should it, people have been enjoying a tab for millennia in one form or another.

Though if it were to be made illegal it'd just push it underground, it'd be just like the days of prohibition with Emphysema Speakeasys, with a troupe of wheezing hoofing iron lung flapper girls.

What gets me is that sure the odd stray whiff can be annoying, but think of all those sleights small and large, petty infractions, annoyances and irritants that happen to one over the course of a lifetime, are any of those truly worth getting one's knickers into such an inordinate twist?

Smoking is a choice and sooner or later every smoker decides to quit, and it's hard or continue. As tragic as the stories of loved ones dying are, Aurelie Dupont is not nanarina's father and should she continue to puff away till her lungs are black wizened lumps of tar rattling around in her rib cage it has absolutely no relation or bearing on anyone else's death or illness. With all the stresses, insecurities, injuries, hardships and worry a dancer has to face, will you really deny her the occasional cig, or not so occasional if that's what floats her boat?


I really admire Aurelie Dupont, she is currently my favourite dancer, because of what I experienced with my Father,it makes me hate to think of anyone I like(or disliked) suffering in the same way. I know I cannot protect them, and it is none of my business actually. My own daughter smokes heavily and already has had cancer, but carries on. I cannot tolerate smoke from cigeretes, it makes me really ill. Every time my grand children come to stay, I have to wash all their clothes as they reak of nicotine, but of course my daughter does not notice it, I do not think some people who smoke are aware of the stale smell that accompanies most of therm.


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