Jump to content


This site uses cookies. By using this site, you agree to accept cookies, unless you've opted out. (US government web page with instructions to opt out: http://www.usa.gov/optout-instructions.shtml)

Does that stuff of 32 fouettes really exixt???You almost never never see 32 fouettes


  • Please log in to reply
46 replies to this topic

#16 SandyMcKean

SandyMcKean

    Gold Circle

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 943 posts

Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:09 AM

say 32 pirouettes for perhaps 24 fouettes


Yes, I could see that conclusion, however, what I'm confused about is how doing doubles and triples work with the music. It seems obvious to me (but perhaps I'm wrong) that a double takes less time than 2 singles, and a triple even less time than 3 singles. But there is a consideration working against that too since clearly a double takes longer than a single.

So something has to "give". I don't know the answer, but I've always assumed that when a ballerina does a double instead of a single that counts as 1 fouette (as was pointed out it's 32 fouettes, not 32 pirouettes). Since the double must take slightly longer, I've assumed that the conductor carefully watches the coordination btwn the dancer and the orchestra, and when doubles or triples occur the conductor slows the tempo ever so slightly to keep the next fouette in sync with the music. It's hard for me to believe that a double counts as 2 fouettes because then an even larger speed-up of the orchestra would then be necessary in order for the ballerina and the music to stay in sync and to end at the same time.

#17 Mme. Hermine

Mme. Hermine

    Emeralds Circle

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,757 posts

Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:43 AM

well, this would appear to be 26 fouettes and 37 turns -



#18 Mme. Hermine

Mme. Hermine

    Emeralds Circle

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,757 posts

Posted 24 January 2012 - 10:44 AM

i don't hear a difference in the orchestra(s) - Posted Image

#19 SandyMcKean

SandyMcKean

    Gold Circle

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 943 posts

Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:07 PM

Very interesting!

It would seem that in a "typical" production the orchestra simply plays what it plays and the ballerina does as she likes. I presume the original music was written to somehow sync or coordinate with exactly 32 single fouettes at some reasonable pace, but that in practice the ballerina has the latitude to do whatever she likes within that time period. She knows when the music will end, and she knows that 32 single fouettes "fit" that music, but she can (with practice) divide that time period up in other ways......including this example of 27 fouettes with 37 turns. (For one, I'm glad these artists "individualize" this famous moment in ballet and make it their own.)

#20 cinnamonswirl

cinnamonswirl

    Bronze Circle

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 307 posts

Posted 24 January 2012 - 12:41 PM

I think typically the orchestra just does its thing and Odile does her thing. As long as the tempo stays the same, the dancer should know from rehearsal what she can fit in. (I did once see a performance where the orchestra's tempo increased during the can-can bars -- the result was not good.)

Also, I'm not sure how the 32 fouettes fit in with the history of Swan Lake. (I'm going to go look at the Swan Lake history thread to see if this has already been discussed.) The Black Swan pas music typically used today is not what Tschaikovsky originally composed for the ballet. 32 fouettes was a trick done by Pierina Legani. I assume the other ladies who danced Odile weren't doing 32 fouettes (or maybe they were?) It wasn't until the '90s, I think, that doing the fouettes became standard. In the recordings of Pliesetskaya she does pique turns and chaines, for example, and some dancers did 16 and then piques or chaines.

Also, to me the fouette music in SL is not really suited to fouettes (in the way the fouette music of Don Quixote is, for example). The music changes half way through -- a lot of dancers use that point to switch from doubles/triples to singles -- but I find it odd to have the music change on the same step like that.

#21 JMcN

JMcN

    Bronze Circle

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPip
  • 373 posts

Posted 24 January 2012 - 03:14 PM

I had always assumed (I know nothing technical about music) that the change to short repeating groups was to facilitate the ballerina if she needed to stop early.

#22 SandyMcKean

SandyMcKean

    Gold Circle

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 943 posts

Posted 24 January 2012 - 03:28 PM

Janet, now you've really got me thinking! I've never seen this sequence from Swan Lake where the ballerina failed to complete the steps. Has anyone seen that, and what do the dancers and the orchestra do in that case?

cinnamonswirl, excellent point I had not considered. The music was written before the 32 fouettes became the "thing to do". So obviously my presumption that the music fits the 32 fouettes is incorrect. If in your research you discover, in big picture terms, what choreography was set originally to that passage, I'd be interested to know.

#23 aurora

aurora

    Silver Circle

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPip
  • 677 posts

Posted 24 January 2012 - 03:43 PM

Janet, now you've really got me thinking! I've never seen this sequence from Swan Lake where the ballerina failed to complete the steps. Has anyone seen that, and what do the dancers and the orchestra do in that case?


I did. It was disaster. Maria kowrowski got *maybe* halfway through, going more and more off-center the whole time. then she just fell out of them.

She tried to improvise. Went into an arabesque. But was so discombobulated it was impossible to go on. So she walked to the side of the stage and just stood there while the orchestra played on...

Really one of the most painful moments at the ballet I have ever sat through.

#24 rg

rg

    Emeralds Circle

  • Editorial Advisor
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,453 posts

Posted 24 January 2012 - 04:45 PM

Mimi Paul had a situation similar to the one described above when she danced Odette/Odile at ABT soon after leaving NYCB.
if mem. serves she got through about half her intended number and stood stock still, as if frozen in headlights.
as Balanchine was wont to say at opportune moments: Better don't do.

#25 Helene

Helene

    Administrator

  • Administrators
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 11,329 posts

Posted 24 January 2012 - 04:52 PM

I have seen performances where the dancer fell out early and didn't attempt to continue, and to me, it's not a big deal.

#26 bart

bart

    Diamonds Circle

  • Board Moderator
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 7,320 posts

Posted 25 January 2012 - 12:42 PM

Just got around to looking at the Ananiashvili video in Post #2. . Thank you so much, Margo, for posting it. I especially love the way she ends the sequence in a pose that tells us a great deal about Odile when the social pretense is been dropped -- steely, commanding, triumphant, glamourously evil. . It is only when she smiles to acknowledge the applause that she breaks character.

#27 SandyMcKean

SandyMcKean

    Gold Circle

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 943 posts

Posted 25 January 2012 - 01:55 PM

Thank you so much, Margo, for posting it.


I too loved that video (I even saved it....which I rarely do).

It impacted me because I surprised myself that I so much liked the "simple" use of 32 straight fouettes instead of the complicating doubles etc. The extra pyrotecnnics are fun, but there is something so pure, clean, and....what the heck, I'll just say it....artistic about doing it so straight and so powerfully.

#28 Mme. Hermine

Mme. Hermine

    Emeralds Circle

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 3,757 posts

Posted 25 January 2012 - 04:08 PM

i saw martine van hamel's first odette/odile with ballet theatre; halfway through the fouettes she was traveling quite a bit and in the middle switched to en dedans fouettes

#29 Ray

Ray

    Gold Circle

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 997 posts

Posted 25 January 2012 - 05:24 PM

i saw martine van hamel's first odette/odile with ballet theatre; halfway through the fouettes she was traveling quite a bit and in the middle switched to en dedans fouettes

Wow--I don't think I've ever seen that; maybe the lead in Ballo Della Regina does a few?

#30 Drew

Drew

    Platinum Circle

  • Senior Member
  • PipPipPipPipPipPipPip
  • 1,288 posts

Posted 25 January 2012 - 06:16 PM

It impacted me because I surprised myself that I so much liked the "simple" use of 32 straight fouettes instead of the complicating doubles etc. The extra pyrotecnnics are fun, but there is something so pure, clean, and....what the heck, I'll just say it....artistic about doing it so straight and so powerfully.


Absolutely! 32 singles brilliantly done make a stunning impression--in my experience much more exciting than anything I have ever seen replace it. (Semenyaka in Act III Swan Lake and Kirkland in Act III of Don Quixote are particularly charged memories)

The doubles, triples and other tricks usually look slower and more mechanical to me (and I speak of doubles and triples done well without the uncontrolled travelling and grimacing they sometimes engender).

Worse yet, doubles and triples are occasionally done with an air of seeming improvisation, as if the ballerina is not entirely in control of her effects--that is, a double alternates with a single steadily for the first 16 or so and then a triple is 'thrown in' etc. here and there, seemingly arbitrarily, or suddenly one gets two singles in a row as if the double did not come off etc. etc.

Of course, it's fun gala fare to see the doubles/triples, but I have actually come to feel slightly frustrated that "top" virtuoso ballerinas now seem to disdain Legnani's specialty. What I would not give to see someone like Osipova just "whip off" 32 single fouettes at top speed. Too easy? I should like to see today's ballerinas show us just how easy it is to challenge the likes of Semenyaka and Kirkland for power, speed, and brilliance in fouettes. (I write as a passionate fan of today's ballerinas, including an exciting virtuoso--even, arguably, a bit of a showboater--like Osipova.)

As far as flubbed fouettes goes: I thought the 'standard' fall back position for a ballerina unable to complete them was a series of piqué turns, which I think has also been a fall back for ballerinas who can't do the fouttes at all...Cinnamonswirl mentioned this above...


0 user(s) are reading this topic

0 members, 0 guests, 0 anonymous users


Help support Ballet Alert! and Ballet Talk for Dancers year round by using this search box for your amazon.com purchases (adblockers may block display):