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Thank you for posting this, Mashinka. This topic has inspired some lively discussions in the past. My view in general is that times and customs change (nobody dresses up for air travel any more, either)although I tend to draw the line at sweatshirts, myself. My own impression is that there are still a fair number of people out there who have the time and inclination to dress up. I think it's fine for them, although as an office worker and one who often travels by public transportation to get to performing arts events, I appreciate the relaxation of the dress code and take advantage of it. Any other thoughts?

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I was taken aback when a friend told me he now wears burmuda shorts to Avery Fisher in the summer - which I do find shocking. He thinks it's more natural and less repressive. I think if the dancers and performers have spent hours dressing up for us, the least we can do in return is dress a little better than we would for a movie, with a small amount of extra flare, a nice scarf or sweater, and show that it's a special occasion.

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I always try to dress up when I go to the theatre,depending on where I am going to. If it is up to the West End, to the Ballet, I wear something comfortable but smart. I like to have had my hair styled and to put some make up on. I do have to travel on the train, and wear something suitable like a nice suit or dress. It is lovely to be able to get my jewellery out and make a special effort.

When I go to Paris to the Opera Garnier I wear a outfit suitable for the evening, as I usually have stayed over night in a hotel or guest house, so have time to pamper myself.

I was very pleased when I took my Grand Daughters to the Ballet for the first time, my Daughter had made a very special effort and bought them lovely dresses. I wanted her to know I appreciated this, and told her so, and she replied that she wanted her children to appreciate the Arts and they needed to know it was appropriate to dress up for the occasion. They loved looking pretty and really were good girls sitting quietly and enjoying the performance. They adored their outing.

It is not difficult for me as I am retired, but when I was working my friend and I used to go to Covent Garden straight from work, but we always took something to change into even if it was only a nice top to use with out suits. To this day I like to make a special effort as it is part of the pleasure of going out.

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I'm glad that people go to performances, no matter what they wear.

That said, especially because it's now my profession, I've discovered the joys of dressing for a performance. Some might say to excess. :)

I started doing it because I really enjoyed the job at The Post, and wanted to look outside like I felt inside. So, I started wearing suits. People noticed immediately, and not only did I feel good, it was good business. It also felt like a sign of respect to the effort being made by the performers.

So I wanted my suits to look better, and I got them tailored.

Then I wanted better suits.

And because I got better suits, I wanted better shirts.

And because I got better shirts, I wanted better shoes.

On second thought, dressing for the ballet can be an expensive, if elegant, proposition. I recommend it only to the committed! :wink:

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I think dressing up for the theater had gone the way of dressing up for church (in a many but not all cases), dressing up to eat out (unless there is a dress code) and dressing up for a lot of things. Occasions like opening nights are still "dress up" but other than that casual is in. I don't mind it. I do understand the idea of dressing for something special, but for me, I dress in everyday wear because being an audience member is part of what I do on a regular basis.

I actually think the casual thing is good (bermuda shorts is a bit too casual, but there are degrees). Arts organizations that want to attract new and young audiences shouldn't worry too much about what they are wearing. I really don't want a young adult who is thinking about going to a ballet, art gallery, musuem, play etc. for the first time to worry about what to wear.

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Leigh, you gave me a good laugh. I love the comfort of casual clothes, but I can relate, and I don't wear casual clothes to the ballet. You write that dressing up

also felt like a sign of respect to the effort being made by the performers.

I feel the same way. It's also a sign of respect to my fellow audience members.

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Leigh, In your list of expenses, you forgot to mention the cost of the dry cleaning nicer suits and blouses, and the extra cabs needed because of the inability to walk in high heels, and the special, additional, dressy outer garments needed because theatres are cold, and the cost of hosiery which is basically disposable, and the cost of make-up, hair and jewels, .... all on top of the ticket price! Add to that the cost of travel, and time off from work (at times necessary)....

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Different expenses for men and women, puppytreats, but yes.

I was told to dryclean my suits as little as possible, but there's an area in my tiny apartment set aside to "stage" an outfit - pick the right tie, links, pocket square.

Luckily, men's formal shoes are easy to walk in, but I have a pair of "weather beater" shoes each winter - shoes towards the end of their career that are the ones that get worn in the rain or snowstorm.

Where I get jealous of women is summer time. For a man to be well-dressed in the summer takes a lot more ingenuity than for a woman!

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Leigh, In your list of expenses, you forgot to mention the cost of the dry cleaning nicer suits and blouses, and the extra cabs needed because of the inability to walk in high heels, and the special, additional, dressy outer garments needed because theatres are cold, and the cost of hosiery which is basically disposable, and the cost of make-up, hair and jewels, .... all on top of the ticket price! Add to that the cost of travel, and time off from work (at times necessary)....

Seconded. Not to mention that women's dry cleaning is more expensive, as well. And of course anyone wearing hosiery has had the experience of getting a run in an expensive pair first evening out. If men had to wear pantyhose they'd storm the Hanes factory like the Bastille, but women just pay up and shut up. :)

I really don't want a young adult who is thinking about going to a ballet, art gallery, musuem, play etc. for the first time to worry about what to wear.

I agree, vipa. Not to the extent that they appear in flip-flops, but to let them know it's okay to walk up and buy a ticket.

It also felt like a sign of respect to the effort being made by the performers.

I would also hope they understand the effort we out of towners on the train make to get to them, as well.

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If I were a heterosexual male, I'd move to Phoenix and get a subscription to the ballet, because a lot of young women attend, and many wear the smallest of sundresses, with bare, tanned legs and strappy, high-heeled sandals, vying with the ballerinas over who is wearing the least.

puppytreats' post reminds me of this passage from "The First Wives Club", my all-time favorite trash novel:

As the car gathered speed after the light changed, he thought about the article in the New York Post his secretary had shown him: "$15,000 for a night out for Ivana and Donald". He remembered how the secretary had laughed derisively at the amount. Bill knew it was true: he could even count it up. Ten units for a dress she could only wear once. (He had trained himself to think of $1,000 as a "unit." It was less nerve-racking than thinking in thousands.) Hairdresser, manicurist, masseuse, makeup artist, jewels, car, ball or theater tickets, dinner out for ten. "See what I mean?" he had told his secretary. "It all adds up. Fifteen units easy." His secretary had nodded in stunned silence.

I remember reading that in stunned silence.

Even the most modest dressing up adds up, especially for women in North America. I've been told that in France, most women have one or two theater outfits, and their friends expect to see them in it repeatedly. Here, we generally don't get off so easily.

I was very surprised that when I went to an Saturday opening night of a new production at l'Opera Bastille a few years ago, even the women in their 40's and up were casually dressed, relatively, with very few wearing skirts or dresses. There were a handful of North Americans who were conspicuous by looking dressier, and, as I got closer to confirm my suspicions, by speaking NA English. As Leigh can attest, when I am one of the dressier people in a building, other people are dressed casually.

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Helene:

I've been told that in France, most women have one or two theater outfits, and their friends expect to see them in it repeatedly. Here, we generally don't get off so easily.

A friend who used to live in France says that then everyone would buy one outfit at the very beginning of the fashion season and wear it all year and then mothball it until it came back in style or parts of it could be cleverly recombined. I once had a nicely cut and effective Agnes B jacket I got for $75 on sale that I wore and wore in New York to the ballet and such until the water from the upstairs apartment radiator overflowed into my closet and ruined it. I was always somewhat envious of students from the Fashion Institute who used pop into thift shops and come out wearing such brilliant combinations.

At the Opera House here in San Francisco people dress pretty well, but with variations night to night - first Tuesdays are old money and black sequins and gold and tourquoise fabrics (with ballet goers like Charlotte Swig and George Shultz and Dede Wilsey of Sean Wilsey's memoir Oh the Glory of It All) while Wednesdays with early 7:30 curtains seem more suburban, egalitarian, and tweedier.

Some SF ballet audience members at deYoung Museum Balenciaga opening, with Maria Kochetkova in Paul Smith

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My last remaining goal in life is to die and come back as Yurie Pascarella :)

Here at the SF Opera House, fashion can be dictated to some degree by where you sit. My regular subscription seat is in the Balcony Circle (not quite the cheapest, but close) and the fashion sense definitely leans toward "Hey pal, let's have a brewski after the show..." Down in the Dress Circle/Grand Tier/Orchestra areas there's a noticeable uptick in the quality (though, as Helene points out, not necessarily in the quantity) of the clothing.

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I find that people in the higher priced seats tend to be better dressed for performances than people in the mid to lower priced seats. Interestingly, a lot of people who sit in the cheapest seats (Family Cirle at the MET) get dressed up because it is a very special event for them. Some of them rarely go to the opera house (or perhaps have never been there), and they make an effort to look good. In particular, during the ABT season I often see large groups of teenagers (mostly young ladies, but a few teenage boys too) who are very meticulously dressed in the Family Circle. My husband and I always have a laugh at the fact that the teenage girls are dressed to the hilt, and the boys tend to wear sneakers and jeans.

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My own impression is that there are still a fair number of people out there who have the time and inclination to dress up. I think it's fine for them, although as an office worker and one who often travels by public transportation to get to performing arts events, I appreciate the relaxation of the dress code and take advantage of it. Any other thoughts?

Up until I left, entrance in the Grand Theater in Havana was prohibited if a number of items where present, among them:

-Shorts

-Bermuda-shorts

-Mens sandals

-Flip-Flops

-...and when I was a kid-(later on having ceased to be reinforced)-short sleeves shirts for men and miniskirts for women.

Yes...the Grand Theater was in decay, there was no water sometimes, paint was peeling all over and seats were loosing their covers, but the old ushers still wore their old time, falling apart uniforms with pride, and they were FIERCE about reinforcing the dress code. I'm an old timer too, even here. I always go to the theater after work, and so I have always clothes in my car's trunk. More than once I had to FLY to get to the theater, and I've changed right in my car before running to catch the performance. I don't know...the whole dressing issue is in my veins.

Edited to add: On the other hand, many times I'm about to scream when I see this over-dressed, pulled up/back, swollen/stuffed entities present at a performance just for the social connotation and then either grabbing/eating greasy donuts or pop-corn in the main lobby, sometimes leaving the cellophane bags behind...or putting their high heeled Loubutins up in the back of the front seats during intermezzos. The whole thing is so sad and disrespectful, so one wonders...what's the sense in their over dressing...? :(

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"I think dressing up for the theater had gone the way of dressing up for church"

"If I were a heterosexual male, I'd move to Phoenix and get a subscription to the ballet, because a lot of young women attend, and many wear the smallest of sundresses, with bare, tanned legs and strappy, high-heeled sandals, vying with the ballerinas over who is wearing the least."

When I was invited to my first midnight mass for Christmas in Virginia during my mid-20's, I dressed in my fanciest, dark suit, and was received with looks of horror, as everyone wore jeans. I thought I was being respectful. I had always been taught to dress modestly and with respect to religious ceremonies. Instead, I was perceived as snobby and arrogant, I believe.

Then, when I saw pictures of religious Jewish ceremonies from Phoenix, I was amazed by the sundresses, bare shoulders, and sandals. I later attended an evangelistic Sunday service and observed a rock band performing to worshippers wearing jeans.

Now, when I go out in New York City, the most dressed up people look like tourists. Nevertheless, a level of respect for the forum, moderated by taste, should be observed. I would never attend a religious ceremony in immodest attire. However, I would not want to look like a tourist at the opera house, either. Maybe this is why New Yorkers are so partial to black outfits....

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On one occasion when I went to Paris I was also trying not to look like a tourist, mostly to avoid being mugged. I must be pretty good at it because people ask me for directions no matter where I am. So I packed nice, understated outfits and bought a new handbag and some terrific shoes. When my plane arrived in Paris, I was informed that my suitcase had gone to Port of Spain. It took nearly three days for my bag to catch up with me. I could have gone shopping for new stuff, but I enjoy shopping about as much as a root canal, so for several days I went to the opera and theatre wearing my travel clothes and shoes. That'll teach you a lesson about vanity, though I'm sure no one else noticed anything at all.

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My last remaining goal in life is to die and come back as Yurie Pascarella :)

Here at the SF Opera House, fashion can be dictated to some degree by where you sit. My regular subscription seat is in the Balcony Circle (not quite the cheapest, but close) and the fashion sense definitely leans toward "Hey pal, let's have a brewski after the show..." Down in the Dress Circle/Grand Tier/Orchestra areas there's a noticeable uptick in the quality (though, as Helene points out, not necessarily in the quantity) of the clothing.

Thanks for the link. I think you picked out the most attractive one to reincarnate as; many of them look ridiculous, esp. Dede Wilsey and Hamish himself--whose cape looks sort of like Cherry Grove attire from the 50s, with the kaftans and gimlets, but which I've seen only in photos. One can identify a 'socialite look' from this very page. Only a few have placed as much emphasis on what goes in the clothes as the clothes themselves, a sort of extreme externalization which is normal. I do find it strange that these social patrons tend to the same hairstyles socialites have used for many decades, at least going back to Jackie Kennedy--stiff, but 'young' coiffure; sometimes it works. This type seems identifiable the world over, always the giant Park Avenue smiles and the Tom Wolfe x-ray looks, when they're able to do something as amusing as the Getty woman (Vanessa, who's a camp; the other one, Rosetta, is very sleek and severe-elegant). This was most enjoyable.

I think it's only appropriate to dress for where you're sitting at a ballet or opera performance. I tend to dress up a bit, but not always wear a tie. Bermuda shorts would be all right with me, according to who's wearing them. I'm more concerned that it doesn't follow from the hyper-casualness that there's a lot of noise made, especially given that a lot of dressed-up people at Lincoln Center are certainly as often among the pushiest and rudest, thinking they can talk during the performance way too freely.

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As someone who travels economy class, my one rule used to be "No Jeans." It has since, of necessity, been amended to "No blue denim jeans at Lincoln Center." The reason is that relatively my clothing size has changed significantly :) (and seems intent on continuing that trend :huh: ) and I refuse to buy clothes that don't meet my very picky specifications about fiber content and rise on trousers. And I don't like shopping. So I often end up going to performances not entirely approving of my own attire. As Mr. Witchel pointed out, summer is much easier for women -- little cotton or linen skirts and dresses (all of mine have sleeves and knee-length hems or longer). I'm looking forward to it.

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Leigh Witchell is a flat-out dandy and it looks good on him and since he visits tailors his clothes FIT and that's all it takes for them to be comfortable. And he has posture to spare, which is what it REALLY takes to make clothes look good. More power to him.

I'm grateful for the gallery of clothes-horses at the museum. Really shocking how much more elegant Anna Wintour is than anybody else. Fascinating image, when you can't even see her face.

Gorgeous clothes. I was surprised to see things that remind me of what priests wear in church; that thing Hamish Bowles is wearing is a clerical garment, a cope, cut off at the hips.

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Then, when I saw pictures of religious Jewish ceremonies from Phoenix, I was amazed by the sundresses, bare shoulders, and sandals. I later attended an evangelistic Sunday service and observed a rock band performing to worshippers wearing jeans.

Many churches face a problem similar to that of arts organizations when it comes to getting younger people in the seats and Christian rock has been part of pop culture for some time, so it makes sense that there's been some relaxation in regard to dress codes there, as well.

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Then, when I saw pictures of religious Jewish ceremonies from Phoenix, I was amazed by the sundresses, bare shoulders, and sandals. I later attended an evangelistic Sunday service and observed a rock band performing to worshippers wearing jeans.

Many churches face a problem similar to that of arts organizations when it comes to getting younger people in the seats and Christian rock has been part of pop culture for some time, so it makes sense that there's been some relaxation in regard to dress codes there, as well.

Quite right, but from suits and ties to blue jeans is a lot of relaxation, almost a suspension. I attend an evening service geared towards university students every other week during the school year, mostly to help serve the meal following the service, but I must say I enjoy wearing jeans and a polo shirt. But even leaving aside the concept of worshipping in casual clothes aside, there is an incongruity between our beautiful sanctuary with its Tiffany windows and the casual clothes even the rectors wear for that service. And even leaving other considerations aside, I see the same incongruity when I see people in jeans at the Koch State Theater or the Kennedy Center.

I'll be at the Kennedy Center next weekend. Comfortable office casual or suit and tie? It's going to be a tough choice. :sweatingbullets:

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