Why Can't Ballet Companies capitalize on the Dance craze ?

[EvilNinjaX]

I don't watch the tv dance shows, but I'm aware of them and almost everywhere I go when I talk to people and say that I dance, they always say, "Well, we always watch {Some dance program} on tv." And it's striking that the general tv populance LOVES dancing. And recently someone told me that Alex Wong didn't renew his contract at MCB so he could be on So You Think You Can Dance, which may end up being an extremely shrewd career move. And before him, Danny Tidwell made himself a household name on one of these shows.

And I'm thinking that there is quite a bit to be learned here and it seems like there's some huge opportunity for ballet companies to get more out in front with the city's populance and to get more of their dancers' names and faces into households. All these companies have so many fantastic dancers and many of them have eclectic dancing backgrounds and talents that could easily be showcased in such a way, many are absolutely beautiful dancing-wise, physically, and (particularly important for tv/marketing purposes) facially (how many young dancer girls do i know that *swoon* at the mention of Sasha Radetsky et al....).

I think we've also seen that while (maybe) the tv watchers might not be interested in watching full length ballet, they will watch short variations and enjoy them. And in general, i think people have a large respect for ballet but as it seems somewhat esoteric, have a bit of a fear of it. And it's in this tv setting that it can be much more enjoyable and less intimidating.

I think if i were in charge of NYCB, ABT, MCB, Joffrey, Washington Ballet, SFB, Alvin Ailey, Alonzo King Lines, etc. etc. I would be trying to get with one of the tv producers (liek Mark Burnett) and try to hash out some kind of Showcase/Contest program. Something that has variety of dancing that pulls from the professional dancing ranks and that has some competition to it, something that has the tv-entertainment value but that can make a Ballet star into a TV Star, something to really say, "Ballet might not be what you think it is; you might like it.."

Or something like that. I'm not exactly sure, natch, but it seems like with so much interest in dance right now, that it's a shame if the companies that depend on dancing can't capitalize significantly on it.

thx

-goro-

[stinger784]

Hey Goro

The second it becomes a competition, the second it loses itself as an art. Do you think that the average Fox or MTV viewer could sit through La Sylphide or White Swan pas de deux? I highly doubt it. These shows do well for the drama of the "real life" people and the tricks and turns they do and then having these judges that are masters in their own right come on and scream at the top of their lungs to ride some hot sauce train? On these shows, I think I have only seen one moment where art prevailed and those two dancers did not even win the competition because they were looking for America's favorite dancer not America's best dancer.

What will throwing art at them in a competition do? Possibly more stereotypes that we do not need and will have to debunk for the next ten or so years. When you look even at the IBC competitions, how much of it is really art? Other than maybe the Prix de Lausanne, all of them are circuses. Put a competition dancer into a full length ballet and survive the 2.5 plus hour show and succeed and then maybe we can talk.

How about that?

[vipa]

I don't watch the tv dance shows, but I'm aware of them and almost everywhere I go when I talk to people and say that I dance, they always say, "Well, we always watch {Some dance program} on tv." And it's striking that the general tv populance LOVES dancing. And recently someone told me that Alex Wong didn't renew his contract at MCB so he could be on So You Think You Can Dance, which may end up being an extremely shrewd career move. And before him, Danny Tidwell made himself a household name on one of these shows.

And I'm thinking that there is quite a bit to be learned here and it seems like there's some huge opportunity for ballet companies to get more out in front with the city's populance and to get more of their dancers' names and faces into households. All these companies have so many fantastic dancers and many of them have eclectic dancing backgrounds and talents that could easily be showcased in such a way, many are absolutely beautiful dancing-wise, physically, and (particularly important for tv/marketing purposes) facially (how many young dancer girls do i know that *swoon* at the mention of Sasha Radetsky et al....).

I think we've also seen that while (maybe) the tv watchers might not be interested in watching full length ballet, they will watch short variations and enjoy them. And in general, i think people have a large respect for ballet but as it seems somewhat esoteric, have a bit of a fear of it. And it's in this tv setting that it can be much more enjoyable and less intimidating.

I think if i were in charge of NYCB, ABT, MCB, Joffrey, Washington Ballet, SFB, Alvin Ailey, Alonzo King Lines, etc. etc. I would be trying to get with one of the tv producers (liek Mark Burnett) and try to hash out some kind of Showcase/Contest program. Something that has variety of dancing that pulls from the professional dancing ranks and that has some competition to it, something that has the tv-entertainment value but that can make a Ballet star into a TV Star, something to really say, "Ballet might not be what you think it is; you might like it.."

Or something like that. I'm not exactly sure, natch, but it seems like with so much interest in dance right now, that it's a shame if the companies that depend on dancing can't capitalize significantly on it.

thx

-goro-

Thank you for this. I don't watch these shows, but a friend of mine who is a choreographer has mentioned to me that the word "ballet" isn't mentioned in these shows. One can be a "lyrical dancer" but ballet isn't mentioned. Making it a ballet competition would bring another element into it. From the other side no artistic director wants to cast according to TV ratings. I get what you mean, but it's tricky.

[Alexandra]

It's a good question, but oh, thank you, Stinger for your reply

[Helene]

I don't think it would hurt to have ballet dancers dance real ballet as featured guests on these shows. I think they could do "White Swan Pas de Deux" or the "Peace Pas de Deux" from "Coppelia" or the "scarf" PdD from "La Bayadere" -- "La Sylphide", not so much -- and I bet the "Agon Pas de Deux" would get the studio audience screaming, once they got over the shock of it. Lifts and swoons go over really well, but the audience would be seeing the real deal at the same time. Some of it might stick.

[Alexandra]

I'd vote for ballet dancers dancing ballet, too, but I can't imagine it would be accepted.

[stinger784]

If I recall correctly SYTYCD did have R+J on their show once and I think Paloma appeared at one point also. Were the live audiences screaming? Yes of course they were. Little bobby-soxers on TV screaming is about right. I find them to scream at anything that is somewhat cool and boo at anything that is negative but truthful. (Can you tell I hate these shows? ) While I wish this idea could work, I think it would have to take a lot more education into where dance started for the new generation to even begin to think that a tendue is cool. I have even worked with professional ballet dancers who do not know how to appreciate the original Petipa choreography of Sleeping Beauty and would rather have double tours and grand allegro in a Garland Waltz that is only meant to be a reflection of the court and formation and regalness. And this is the "education" we are now giving our new youth by spitting on the Kings and Queens who have danced before us. Their is beautifulness in simplicity and formation and a tendue. Look at Balanchine's M&M at the most recent Ballet Across America. It was ripped apart by the younger generation of dancers, but so appreciated by the older dancers, over 25 years old mind you, who wanted to be there and walking in formation to see where the choreography would go next.

'Nuf said till round 3.

[richard53dog]

I seem to remember Maria Kochetkova from SFB appearing on SYTYCD and doing the variation from Don Quixote.

[LiLing]

I can't see serious ballet choreography going over well in the context of these shows. They are all about flash and hard sell.

I think companies could benefit by placing ads for their seasons on local stations on nights when these shows are aired. ABT currently has an ad showing in NYC (is it on PBS?) with some very razzle dazzle clips from several ballets that I think would appeal to the audiences for these dance shows. It could spark their curiosity to see a co. It might pay for ballet schools to put up ads as well.

[dirac]

And I'm thinking that there is quite a bit to be learned here and it seems like there's some huge opportunity for ballet companies to get more out in front with the city's populance and to get more of their dancers' names and faces into households. All these companies have so many fantastic dancers and many of them have eclectic dancing backgrounds and talents that could easily be showcased in such a way, many are absolutely beautiful dancing-wise, physically, and (particularly important for tv/marketing purposes) facially (how many young dancer girls do i know that *swoon* at the mention of Sasha Radetsky et al....).

I think we've also seen that while (maybe) the tv watchers might not be interested in watching full length ballet, they will watch short variations and enjoy them. And in general, i think people have a large respect for ballet but as it seems somewhat esoteric, have a bit of a fear of it. And it's in this tv setting that it can be much more enjoyable and less intimidating.

I think if i were in charge of NYCB, ABT, MCB, Joffrey, Washington Ballet, SFB, Alvin Ailey, Alonzo King Lines, etc. etc. I would be trying to get with one of the tv producers (liek Mark Burnett) and try to hash out some kind of Showcase/Contest program. Something that has variety of dancing that pulls from the professional dancing ranks and that has some competition to it, something that has the tv-entertainment value but that can make a Ballet star into a TV Star, something to really say, "Ballet might not be what you think it is; you might like it.."

Or something like that. I'm not exactly sure, natch, but it seems like with so much interest in dance right now, that it's a shame if the companies that depend on dancing can't capitalize significantly on it.

thx

-goro-

I think you make some good points, EvilNinjaX, and I agree with Helene's post as well. Ballet dancers and opera stars used to appear on the old television variety shows alongside some very doubtful performers. These new shows do suggest that there are millions of people who want to see dance and I think if ballet can capitalize in some way then it can only be a good thing. It is in any case worth trying. Nothing ventured, nothing gained, etc.

[4mrdncr]

I remember a ballet competition on tv: the (first?) Jackson IBC. It was probably on PBS. I know Katherine Healey won the jr gold that year, not sure if Carreno won the Sr. Men. I do remember Bruce Marks was a judge. I thought I'd never get the chance to see a competition, (since Varna was a long way away and NY wasn't evolved yet?), so I was very glad that someone somewhere decided to do a documentary (Reality Shows weren't the norm at that time) of a ballet competition and let us diehard fans of ballet and PBS watch it.

[EvilNinjaX]

Hey Goro

The second it becomes a competition, the second it loses itself as an art. Do you think that the average Fox or MTV viewer could sit through La Sylphide or White Swan pas de deux? I highly doubt it. These shows do well for the drama of the "real life" people and the tricks and turns they do and then having these judges that are masters in their own right come on and scream at the top of their lungs to ride some hot sauce train? On these shows, I think I have only seen one moment where art prevailed and those two dancers did not even win the competition because they were looking for America's favorite dancer not America's best dancer.

What will throwing art at them in a competition do? Possibly more stereotypes that we do not need and will have to debunk for the next ten or so years. When you look even at the IBC competitions, how much of it is really art? Other than maybe the Prix de Lausanne, all of them are circuses. Put a competition dancer into a full length ballet and survive the 2.5 plus hour show and succeed and then maybe we can talk.

How about that?

Yo Stinger,

I get your response. I understand about the purity and artistry and the desire to keep it and not to dilute it.

And yes, i think if you throw something too "artsy" at the general public, they would likely immediately tune out. But, i can't help but feel that dance is FOR the masses, that Ballet is also for the masses. The excitement that these tv shows generate indicate that the masses WILL pay attention and watch dance and they will/do enjoy dance. And so why can't ballet touch these people and begin the indoctrination process? Probably one of the difficult stereotypes of ballet for the public is that it's serious, somber, dusty, stodgy, unexciting stuff. I think there's also a perception that it's all the same, also, rows of skinny girls moving slowly on stage doing things that you don't really understand.

But ballet has so much excitement to it also, so much emotion, all kinds of emotions, which is probably what separates it from other dance styles. And the dancers are so versatile these days. How would some of the audience react to seeing excerpts of Sinatra Suite or Western Symphony or Stars and Stripes? Would some of these couch potato guys perk up if seeing the Men's Don Q variation?

Obviously, i'm not talking of using TV to put the ART form on display, but I think that we're seeing that vanish as PBS (and any other arts channels) are broadcasting less and less (none?) ballet.

I think mainstream public is probably ready to be exposed to ballet. I think that there's a way to show and slowly educate them and bring ballet into public consciousness a bit. What So You Think You Can Dance has done is it has taken a ballet soloist and made him a household name and face; in fact, people talk of Alex Wong as "Alex" with some level of familiarity. The next time he dances with a company, there will probably a Front Page spread rather than a little bit in the Arts & Entertainment section. And maybe a few people are going to be interested in seeing him in a ballet setting. That's a major win. If a ballet company could work on this type of marketing, it could be to great effect.

I know it's really kind of playing with the Devil, b/c these shows are almost antithetical to the fundamental ways of ballet. But i don't think it need be the direction a company takes itself, but an avenue of reaching out to the public to bring them TO the ballet.

I just can't help but feel that there is a HUGE public out there that is at the point of being receptive to ballet and that ballet has to find a way to go reach them.

-goro-

[CJA]

Does ballet have to break out into the mainstream or is it acceptable for it to remain hidden away? Ballet is mostly associated with classical music and classical orchestras are struggling too. Nureyev and Baryshnikov brought a lot of exitement to ballet decades ago but not much has happened to enliven the art since then. Today hip hop is all the rage and if ballet is not made more relevant then it may remain as a dance niche.

[Jack Reed]

Is it either-or, or are there scattered in the mainstream people who are up for fine art, but have no idea of ballet, never having glimpsed any. I keep thinking the marketers are aiming wrong, not going for those already disposed to like it. For instance, neither I nor anyone I know has ever seen an ad for a ballet presenter in a classical-music program book, although I've seen a few classical presenters advertising to a ballet audience. Why, or why not?

Getting ballet on TV - ballet, the real thing, as Stinger says, if not a whole lot, but not something else, might help connect those who are susceptible to it to what watching it does. (Clips, if well shot, are a fine idea, but TV advertising is expensive.)

Somehow I think marketers themselves don't get the grace-and-beauty thing, and so they can't orient people toward it. They aim low, so to speak, they aim to manipulate, and fine art - performing or "plastic" (some made object) - lifts your spirit, it's part of what people speak of when they speak of the spiritual, so they are incompatible. (Does any of this make sense?) They try to sell something they don't know anything about themselves. They've not had the experience themselves we know and have come to crave.

[Kathleen O'Connell]

Does ballet have to break out into the mainstream or is it acceptable for it to remain hidden away? Ballet is mostly associated with classical music and classical orchestras are struggling too. Nureyev and Baryshnikov brought a lot of exitement to ballet decades ago but not much has happened to enliven the art since then. Today hip hop is all the rage and if ballet is not made more relevant then it may remain as a dance niche.

Well, Atlanta Ballet, Lauri Stallings, and Antwan "Big Boi" Patton gave it a shot in 2008. From CNN: Hip-hop meets ballet in Big Boi's 'big' debut

Stallings and Big Boi hope the show, which has received growing buzz in the ballet and hip-hop communities, will help bring together a hip-hop crowd that may not have ever chosen to go to a ballet and a classical crowd that might never have heard songs like "Bombs Over Baghdad."

In her review for the The New York Times (When Ballet Plays Footsie With Hip-Hop) Roslyn Sulcas was rather appreciative of the effort, though she didn't hesitate to point that it was a flawed one. She admitted that in terms of gaining a new audience, Patton definitely won:

Clearly the aim is to expand the ballet company's audience. But it's far more likely that "big," which opened on Thursday night at the Fabulous Fox Theater here, will bring ballet audiences to hip-hop. (I, for one, am going to download as many songs by OutKast as possible.)

But she didn't dismiss Stallings' work out-of-hand:

At best, "big" has moments of fascinating intersection between the movement and the firecracker verbal delivery of Mr. Patton's work. At worst, the dancers simply look like a rather sophisticated back-up troupe.Trying to bring ballet into the contemporary world by yoking it to a contemporary idea, be it music or narrative, isn't a new idea. But, with rare exceptions, the results are usually excruciating. (Ballet can't achieve modernity by association, only by an extension of its own physical laws and principles.)

"Big," however, is not the least bit excruciating. Ms. Stallings mostly steers clear of the contrived juxtaposition of two worlds — dancers on point behaving like nightclubbers on amphetamines — to which most of these ventures fall prey. And her style, strongly influenced by the explosive, geometric movement of Ohad Naharin, is often fascinating to watch in its unpredictable, propulsive dynamics.

I really like the sentence Sulcas put in parentheses, so I'm going to repeat it: "Ballet can't achieve modernity by association, only by an extension of its own physical laws and principles."

[Paul Parish]

There's NO inherent antipathy between art and competition.

Oedipus Rex was written for a tragedy competition -- the ancient Greeks were VERY competitive, and in fact all the great tragedies were written for competitions. So were the Odes of Pindar.

There's no inherent antipathy between popular art and great art; though they often diverge, they don't have to. Rubens's paintings were popular; Victor hugo's novels were popular; Tchaikovsky's music was popular, so was Beethoven's, so was Count Basie's and Louis Armstrong's. Popular AND great.

Competitions in our day ARE rather dumbed down -- but they don't have to be.

Frankly, I'd love to see Viengsay Valdez and Carlos Acosta enter a competition and do "le Corsaire.'