220 replies to this topic

[papeetepatrick]

Simon G, on Mar 31 2010, 01:24 PM, said:

The Episcopal church isn't a limping wounded art form, that MUST charge every member of the audience upwards of $50+ to $100+ if it has any chance of surviving.

Let's get past the 50s Ballets Russes "Ballet IS religion" mentality - it isn't. Religion can and will continue through one form or another as long as civilisation exists. Ballet? The Jury is very much still out.

Don't agree, Simon.  Ballet can still be, like any other art, thought of as a 'religion', it just has to adjust like the other religions.  And you don't know if literal religion will or won't last 'as long as civilization lasts'. Both it and the arts may get 'limping and wounded', just at different times and to different degress.

[Simon G]

papeetepatrick, on Mar 31 2010, 06:21 PM, said:

I like the way you handled my provocative post, though, because I fully intend not to give into the internet's encroachment whenever I can (I've been successful thus far in only being wounded, but not mortally).  I actually like this peculiar thread, because it does show, I think, a brilliant young artist who acts silly sometimes, but it doesn't get in the way of the important things--and that helps me learn better how to integrate some of this new media that often really does annoy me to no end, and has even caused me real problems. But don't think for a minute that I wouldn't rather discuss some of the Reality TV people on THIS board than have to watch any more of their YouTubes    They were all horrible, no matter how 'inspiring'.

Patrick,

If you're taking a pop at Jedward, you have really, really crossed a line this time. I'm warning you, I won't stand for it, and will ask dirac to immediately revoke all your posting rights on these boards. And don't think she won't.

I'm warning you don't mess with me, not when it comes to Jedward.

BTW in the UK you can get a Jedward Easter Egg. I've bought three. They come in twin packs!

[bart]

Fortunately, there are no simple answers to questions of personal taste. Which is a blessing to discussion boards like Ballet Talk.

As to the larger issues of the effectiveness/appropriateness of dancers using Twitter in this fashion, let's all agree to re-convene in 5 or 10 years to see how this has developed.  "Just one of the boys/girls" publicity has a track record in the arts.  I remember the press coverage that the Joffrey courted back in the 60s and 70s.  That particular trend faded away.  Now it's back.  Will it survive?  Will it be good for the classical arts?  Interesting questions (to me at least).

In the meantime, I'm delighted that this topic has generated so much interest and response.  (There are at this moment 12 members reading -- and no doubt writing -- in this thread.)  Who would have thought?  

[Mme. Hermine]

Sacred monsters versus sacred occasions are different things.  When you appear on stage you have an enormous responsibility, and I think tweeting in the middle of a performance *on stage* (note I don't specify before the show, at the end of the show, after company class, during an intermission when you have more than an hour before you have to go on stage, etc, but *on stage while the performance is going on* is not a good thing.  Nothing said here about the content.

[Simon G]

papeetepatrick, on Mar 31 2010, 06:27 PM, said:

Simon G, on Mar 31 2010, 01:24 PM, said:

The Episcopal church isn't a limping wounded art form, that MUST charge every member of the audience upwards of $50+ to $100+ if it has any chance of surviving.

Let's get past the 50s Ballets Russes "Ballet IS religion" mentality - it isn't. Religion can and will continue through one form or another as long as civilisation exists. Ballet? The Jury is very much still out.

Don't agree, Simon.  Ballet can still be, like any other art, thought of as a 'religion', it just has to adjust like the other religions.  And you don't know if literal religion will or won't last 'as long as civilization lasts'. Both it and the arts may get 'limping and wounded', just at different times and to different degress.

Patrick,

I'm not denying the beauty and ability of the art form to transport and when it's at its best to take you to "another plain" if you will (God that sounded naff).

But what I do mean is that anyone can go into a Church and sit down and be a part of the service, of the collective audience, for free. If ballet were able to operate under such circumstances then it would be in a far healthier state, especially regarding new audiences.

Anything that costs that kind of money for a single ticket is going to face huge problems in recruiting audiences who were previously indifferent to the art form.

Unless ballet can find a way to bring in those new audiences, reduce costs, shorten deficits and appeal on that wider level and bring in a poorer demographic, then where exactly is the money and the audience going to come from to enable it to continue?

[papeetepatrick]

Simon G, on Mar 31 2010, 01:28 PM, said:

Patrick,

If you're taking a pop at Jedward, you have really, really crossed a line this time. I'm warning you, I won't stand for it, and will ask dirac to immediately revoke all your posting rights on these boards. And don't think she won't.

I'm warning you don't mess with me, not when it comes to Jedward.

BTW in the UK you can get a Jedward Easter Egg. I've bought three. They come in twin packs!

I feel like Joan Greenwood at this point:  'How DARE you!  I am NEVER wrong!!!'  Don't you realize that it was I, and I alone, who introduced Susan Boyle to the world of ballet yesterday?

[canbelto]

Quote

You can't go back, regardless of Bouder Tweeting or not. But I really am beginning to wonder what this thread is actually all about? The ire and outrage levied at her is completely out of all proportion to any crime against art that she may or may not have done. Real, imagined, perceived or otherwise.

I too am shocked by the venom leveled at Bouder. And for those who don't regularly attend NYCB performances, I'd just like to say: Bouder onstage is really special. She's a technical dynamo, a ballerina who wasn't born with either the best face or the best body but who nevertheless is a star because of her dancing. She takes huge chances onstage, which can result in her falling flat on her butt, but her spontaneity and spunk onstage are just part of her appeal. Now if you're going to think less of her and not attend her performances because she twitters between the Rose Adagio and Vision Scene, and because she had the temerity to express her annoyance at a cab driver (not to HIM, but in a tweet), then I'd just say it's your loss that you're missing out on one of the most exciting ballerinas of our generation.

[bart]

Fortunately, there are no simple answers to questions of personal taste.  (That's what makes Discussion Boards work.)

As to the larger issues of the effectiveness/appropriateness of dancers using Twitter in this fashion, let's all agree to re-convene in 5 or 10 years to see how this has developed.  "Just one of the boys/girls" publicity has a track record in the arts.  I remember the publicity that a number of the Joffrey dancers received in the 60s and 70s.  That particular incarnation faded.  Now it's back.  Will it survive?  If so, will it be good for the classical arts?  On the other hand, will people even remember what Twitter was?  Will "mystique" make a comeback?  Interesting questions (to me at least).

Meanwhile, I note that there are 12 different members currently reading -- and  possible writing -- on this thread.  Thanks, abatt, for starting us off.  You definitely lighted a spark.      

[papeetepatrick]

I just found that it was indeed Dumchenko, and that she had been wonderful on the recent U.S. tour as Florine, although hadn't been on the tours for some years.  I was glad to hear this, although I've never gotten to see her in person.   I couldn't remember the name for some reason, I don't know if she has been discussed that much on the board--but she really does have a special quality.

[Simon G]

canbelto, on Mar 31 2010, 06:36 PM, said:

I'd just like to say: Bouder onstage is really special. She's a technical dynamo, a ballerina who wasn't born with either the best face or the best body but who nevertheless is a star because of her dancing.

I've only seen her dance live a few times, but that's exactly what I love about her. She's a dancer born with everything going against her in terms of a body made for ballet, and the technique she's developed is only at the further detriment of anything typically fitting the balletic ideal - and yet it doesn't matter. She works as an artist because of the sum of faults which aren't faults, just a new way and approach to what a woman in ballet should look and be like.

I love dancers with difficult or inappropriate bodies, they're exciting, precisely because they make you look at dance in a new way.

[Mme. Hermine]

canbelto, on Mar 31 2010, 01:36 PM, said:

Quote

You can't go back, regardless of Bouder Tweeting or not. But I really am beginning to wonder what this thread is actually all about? The ire and outrage levied at her is completely out of all proportion to any crime against art that she may or may not have done. Real, imagined, perceived or otherwise.

I too am shocked by the venom leveled at Bouder. And for those who don't regularly attend NYCB performances, I'd just like to say: Bouder onstage is really special. She's a technical dynamo, a ballerina who wasn't born with either the best face or the best body but who nevertheless is a star because of her dancing. She takes huge chances onstage, which can result in her falling flat on her butt, but her spontaneity and spunk onstage are just part of her appeal. Now if you're going to think less of her and not attend her performances because she twitters between the Rose Adagio and Vision Scene, and because she had the temerity to express her annoyance at a cab driver (not to HIM, but in a tweet), then I'd just say it's your loss that you're missing out on one of the most exciting ballerinas of our generation.

Let me say it once again.  I am not leveling any venom at her, she's a good dancer and probably a nice person.  Just had to get that in.  

[kfw]

canbelto, on Mar 31 2010, 01:36 PM, said:

Quote

You can't go back, regardless of Bouder Tweeting or not. But I really am beginning to wonder what this thread is actually all about? The ire and outrage levied at her is completely out of all proportion to any crime against art that she may or may not have done. Real, imagined, perceived or otherwise.

I too am shocked by the venom leveled at Bouder. And for those who don't regularly attend NYCB performances, I'd just like to say: Bouder onstage is really special. She's a technical dynamo, a ballerina who wasn't born with either the best face or the best body but who nevertheless is a star because of her dancing. She takes huge chances onstage, which can result in her falling flat on her butt, but her spontaneity and spunk onstage are just part of her appeal. Now if you're going to think less of her and not attend her performances because she twitters between the Rose Adagio and Vision Scene, and because she had the temerity to express her annoyance at a cab driver (not to HIM, but in a tweet), then I'd just say it's your loss that you're missing out on one of the most exciting ballerinas of our generation.

No one here has expressed, ire, outrage, or venom, or anything like it, or suggested they think less of her for tweeting. And I have said a couple of times that she seems like a very nice person.

[kfw]

Patrick, I've enjoyed reading your thoughts and you've given me a few good laughs. I'll just respond to this below:

papeetepatrick, on Mar 31 2010, 01:21 PM, said:

kfw--the reason i don't care if dancers Tweet between acts or do anything else that pleases them, is that nobody in audience sits in rapt attention during intermission, meditating on how this might help the continuity of a near-sacred performance.

No, nowadays they're texting or tweeting all their friends.  

Simon G, on Mar 31 2010, 01:24 PM, said:

She did NOTHING wrong!!!!

I don't remember anyone saying she did anything wrong. We've been discussing what does and doesn't help the art form. I've said I wish dancers wouldn't tweet between acts of a performance. Also that I doubt information of the kind she dispenses does much to bring new fans, though I could of course be wrong. Also that I think the old model of the not-so-familiar star is still valid.

[bart]

Quote

No one here has expressed, ire, outrage, or venom, or anything like it, or suggested they think less of her for tweeting. And I have said a couple of times that she seems like a very nice person.

Quote

I don't remember anyone saying she did anything wrong. We've been discussing what does and doesn't help the art form.

kfw is right.  I urge everyone to go back and read the earlier posts.  We actually seem to have several parallel discussions going on about this topic.  None of them is an attack on Ms. Bouder, though criticisms of course have been made about her tweets.  Tweeting is a public activity -- like dancing -- and what one tweets is not above questioning and criticizing.  Especially when it makes the NY Times.  

[bart]

The April/May issue of Pointe Magazine has an article on "Getting Into Galas."  The following is relevant to this thread:

Quote

Promote Yourself.

[Daniil] Simkin's [web]site features video clips and biographical information.  He also maintains a Facebook page where his fans can connect with him, and he even tweets.  "I get criticized for being so open, but it doesn't hurt," he says.  "I've definitely been contacted [for Gala gigs] through Facebook and by people who saw me on You Tube."