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I'm sure I'm not the only one who remembers the old movie musicals and how they left a few moments after the song-and-dance numbers for audience applause. Later, when they hit the small screen, those pauses were edited out ... or segued into commercial breaks.

Here's an audience that could teach some of our audiences a thing or two about good manners. Even the late-arriving patrons are not disruptive.

The world is certainly charging ahead quickly. The most astonishing news in the cnet report, to me at least, was this:

And though there aren't tweet seats at the Kennedy Center just yet, it may only be a matter of time: No less an institution than Kennedy Center house band the National Symphony Orchestra got started with Twitter way back in 2009, when it tweeted live commentary during a performance of Beethoven's "Pastoral Symphony." (That was at Virginia's Wolf Trap Center for the Performing Arts, which lists innovation as a core value.)

[ ... ]

It's often about encouraging real-time, performance-related, Twitter-enabled discussions. And the venues or companies themselves are often participating in the tweeting.

One COULD argue that, for those people who can't or won't sit still and just listen and watch, it's better to have them do express themselves silently.

I doubt that the Twitter stream was aimed at those in attendance. Rather, it was probably for fans who couldn't be there. Was the concert, by any chance broadcast or streamed? Those audiences might have been the target.
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LOVE this audience. carbro, you are right -- they are most mannerly -- not to mention ... inquisitive, attentive, and quiet. Only one cow was distracted enough to snack on the grass, and I like to imagine that a neighbor reminded her, with a soft little moo, that this was not appropriate. Music is said to have amazing therapeutic powers. I hope that milk production was up by the end of the day.

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I think different people will have different opinions about this, because an acquaintance of mine dresses up for the Met's HD transmissions. He thinks I am terrible to show up in cargo shorts and t-shirt, but it is Florida and a movie theater.
To me dressing up for the transmission is a confusion of the occasion similar to applauding as you would at a live performance. One is one, the other is the other. (I do think it would be appropriate to dress if it was a premiere or a special showing.)
The occasion is the performance, and if the performance is special to people, they dress up. (Or if, like me, they prefer to dress down even on special occasions, they may dress up out of consideration for other members of the audience).

I'm a rabid advocate of ENFORCED dress codes for opera and ballet. I surely miss the sunny days of seeing tourists dropping jaws when told they were not allowed into the theater in cargo shorts and/or flip flops. I guess they couldn't understand the measure if the audience around them was basically made of starved nationals-(who would scrapped long sleeves and dressy pants out of nowhere)- in a crumbling grand dame of a theater.

I'm really schizophrenic on this issue. I almost always wear a tie to the ballet/opera/symphony and I get annoyed about the casual dress of some of the members of the hiking club that I go to the Colorado Symphony with. On the other hand, I think that the stuffiness of classical music and dance presentations discourages people from attending who might actually enjoy the art but are turned off by the perceived conservative and elitist attitude.

I've noticed a steady decline in the formality of dress at the Colorado Symphony over the 13 or 14 years that I've been attending. At first, it was rare to see a woman wearing pants and the majority of men had ties on. Now us tie wearers are in a distinct minority. The same is not true of the Colorado Ballet; however, the overwhelming majority of the attendees are women and they seem to be successful in proving the maxim that women dress for women.

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I think that the stuffiness of classical music and dance presentations discourages people from attending who might actually enjoy the art but are turned off by the perceived conservative and elitist attitude.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but the perception of formality and tradition as stuffy and elitist strikes me as a failure of the imagination bordering on judgmental. If it just takes a few nice clothes for a newcomer to fit right in, I don't see how the dress code is elitist. Imagine the outcry if the hip-hop dress code was criticized as slovenly. And what sort of looks might a guy in a suit get at a hip-hop club? If one set of standards is stuffy, I don't see why another is.

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I'm really schizophrenic on this issue. I almost always wear a tie to the ballet/opera/symphony and I get annoyed about the casual dress of some of the members of the hiking club that I go to the Colorado Symphony with. On the other hand, I think that the stuffiness of classical music and dance presentations discourages people from attending who might actually enjoy the art but are turned off by the perceived conservative and elitist attitude.

I agree. This is less true than it used to be because the dress code has relaxed considerably but certainly the perception is out there. At the same time the way that "casual" keeps getting defined down by certain parties is annoying.

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I don't mean to offend anyone, but the perception of formality and tradition as stuffy and elitist strikes me as a failure of the imagination bordering on judgmental. If it just takes a few nice clothes for a newcomer to fit right in, I don't see how the dress code is elitist. Imagine the outcry if the hip-hop dress code was criticized as slovenly. And what sort of looks might a guy in a suit get at a hip-hop club? If one set of standards is stuffy, I don't see why another is.

I'm with you. Gone for good, I guess, are the days when children were raised with the idea that you dress for the occasion, not for yourself. Even when I was an impoverished college student, I had a jacket, a few ties and button-down shirts, and a pair of loafers. These things really don't have to cost any more than any other kind of clothing.

Well, times change, and I suppose I don't have a problem with "nice" casual, especially from young people. But the things people wear! Shorts and flip-flops for instance are common everywhere (even in December, which I find just bizarre). A friend of mine recently told me about being invited to dinner at Per Se, New York's swankiest restaurant, and her date showed up in jeans and a T-shirt. He's in his 60s--not a kid. I mean, come one, make an effort!

By the way, I do notice that ballet crowds tend to be better dressed than many others. I'm not sure why that is, but it's nice.

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Last thursday during the Nutcracker I had a nightmare of a night. Children screeming, parents eating out of cellophane bags like maniacs, flashes going on during the entire performance, late comers pouring in at all times, cell phones texting mode in full blast. I had a couple seated in front of me who refused to stop the compulsive texting, even after several attempts by me and the usher, whom I called in. Finally, out of major frustration, I took my programme and snapped it loudly, full force on the tubing behind their heads. BAM!!! They jumped in their seats, but it worked. To each, his/her own. Still, it is getting more and more exhausting to deal with all that...

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Last thursday during the Nutcracker I had a nightmare of a night. ..... Finally, out of major frustration, I took my programme and snapped it loudly, full force on the tubing behind their heads. BAM!!! They jumped in their seats, but it worked. ...

Ha-ha! Good for you, Cubanmiamiboy! I would have done the same.

Earlier, Anthony_NYC mentioned "...Gone for good, I guess, are the days when children were raised with the idea that you dress for the occasion, not for yourself...." Not in Russia, where little girls are decked-out with silk hair-bows & lovely dresses, & little boys in smart outfits....AND taught to stay still and 'honor' what they are watching (even serious operas).

To be fair, even this year at the Warner Theater/Washington Ballet NUT, I saw mostly well-dressed children...then again, at $107 a ticket -- even for a seat in the farthest row in the back of the mezzanine! -- they most likely belong to the 'prep school crowd' that can afford it.

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Last thursday during the Nutcracker I had a nightmare of a night. Children screeming, parents eating out of cellophane bags like maniacs, flashes going on during the entire performance, late comers pouring in at all times, cell phones texting mode in full blast. I had a couple seated in front of me who refused to stop the compulsive texting, even after several attempts by me and the usher, whom I called in. Finally, out of major frustration, I took my programme and snapped it loudly, full force on the tubing behind their heads. BAM!!! They jumped in their seats, but it worked. To each, his/her own. Still, it is getting more and more exhausting to deal with all that...

Was that in Miami? I do think Miami audiences can be the worst sometimes. I have been to so many Florida Grand Opera performances down there, and it is probably the fault of the ushers, but it seems like people feel they can walk in and out like they are at a movie. I remember being at a Traviata and it was like Grand Central Station during the Preludio which is one of my favorite pieces of music. At a recital years ago in Miami Montserrat Caballe put some people in their place as they were filing in late after she had entered and was about to start. She stared at them like, "I'm waiting for you to get seated!" They suddenly rushed. If she had not shamed them they would have taken their sweet time. But in defense of Miami I think it is getting terrible all over Florida and maybe all over the nation. I went to my local Nutcracker and there was a young girl turning on her cell phone every time a scene change occurred. I guess people can not wait for one hour (for intermission) to see who has texted them. Also, the family behind me sounded like they were very involved in the company yet they talked during the show. It is unbelievable, but I think Nutcracker does bring out the worst audiences, because you have many people who don't really care about ballet who attend Nutcracker.

As for ties.....I don't mean this to offend anyone, but, in my personal opinion, ties are becoming a thing of the past except for extremely formal occasions like weddings (and you are part of the entourage standing up in front of everyone). Ties are becoming symbolic of car salesmen types and no longer part of the well dressed, fashionable or wealthy, in my opinion. Even CEOs are starting to wear sport coats, dress shirts open with no tie. When I attend the opera in NY, SF, etc. I see very few men young and old wearing ties. Most wear sport coats, dress shirts, and no tie....dress shirt open one or more buttons. Opening Nights can still have a few in tuxes and a few in ties, but even on Opening Nights the dress shirts are usually open, no tie. You might hate it or not, but that seems to be the norm nowadays. Things change. We no longer dress like people in the 1830s, and we also no longer dress like people in the 1980s. Personally, I have always hated ties. Can't stand anything closed around my neck and am loving the fact I no longer have to wear one anywhere I go. I always felt like I was choking or itchy around the neck. I always envied women being able to be dressy without anything around the neck!!!!

We all have our point where we draw the line. I always wear a sport coat and sometimes even a suit but never a tie. So to some I might seem "casual," but I think it still looks dressy. On the flip side I can't stand seeing how some of the young guys show up to opera or ballet in "clubbing" outfits. Even when I was in my 20s I would go home and change after the opera before I went out to the bar or club. I think men wearing "clubbing" outfits is the male equivalent of slutty dressing. Appropriate for bars, but not for the opera or ballet. Just my two cents!

I forgot.....one guy at the Nutcracker I attended last Friday had a loud Hawaiian shirt and shorts. He was probably about 55 years old, old enough to know better (I am 44, by the way). What was strange is that his wife made an attempt to look semi-dressy. If I were his wife I would have made him change clothes. But everyone thinks differently about these things.

Anyway, I like to be sort of dressed up for events but in the end I really don't care if others dress down. I might personally think it is inappropriate, but in this time when opera and ballet are having trouble making ends meet I guess I should be happy that people are attending regardless of their clothing.

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I forgot.....one guy at the Nutcracker I attended last Friday had a loud Hawaiian shirt and shorts. He was probably about 55 years old, old enough to know better (I am 44, by the way). What was strange is that his wife made an attempt to look semi-dressy. If I were his wife I would have made him change clothes. But everyone thinks differently about these things.

Actually, I approve of the wife for not saying anything because I don't believe in scolding or lecturing one's spouse. You just do what you need to do, hope they follow your example (to please you, if for no other reason), and if they don't, you heave a private sigh, then head out the door with all the dignity you can muster despite your mortification. That's love.

Not that I personally own any, but I confess to being rather fond of Hawaiian shirts, which I find can look quite smart if they're properly fitted, at least in a sunny state like Florida. Shorts, however--that goes over my personal line for an indoor performance. Does that make me arbitrary?

By they way, I notice that among men shoddy dressers go across all ages. Women as a whole dress much better overall, but what bad dressers there are are usually middle-aged or older; young women tend to dress very nicely indeed. I have no idea why this is.

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I forgot.....one guy at the Nutcracker I attended last Friday had a loud Hawaiian shirt and shorts. He was probably about 55 years old, old enough to know better (I am 44, by the way). What was strange is that his wife made an attempt to look semi-dressy. If I were his wife I would have made him change clothes. But everyone thinks differently about these things.

Actually, I approve of the wife for not saying anything because I don't believe in scolding or lecturing one's spouse. You just do what you need to do, hope they follow your example (to please you, if for no other reason), and if they don't, you heave a private sigh, then head out the door with all the dignity you can muster despite your mortification. That's love.

Not that I personally own any, but I confess to being rather fond of Hawaiian shirts, which I find can look quite smart if they're properly fitted, at least in a sunny state like Florida. Shorts, however--that goes over my personal line for an indoor performance. Does that make me arbitrary?

By they way, I notice that among men shoddy dressers go across all ages. Women as a whole dress much better overall, but what bad dressers there are are usually middle-aged or older; young women tend to dress very nicely indeed. I have no idea why this is.

I think young women want to look their best, b/c they are young, beautiful and often still on the market. Even if they are with a boyfriend or even husband they are young and want eyes on them, I suspect. I think you are right about women overall dressing better than men at the ballet. Men can get away with looking like slobs even if they shouldn't. I have to say that I rarely iron a shirt, even a dress shirt, unless going to a job interview. I try to take them out of the dryer before completely dry and hang them up.But if I am too late taking them out I take the attitude, "I'm a man and people will shrug it off!" Sure enough, female friends have said, "Oh, he's a man! What do you expect!" and I am always thinking, "Hurray! No need to iron my shirts!"

Unlike you not sure I would keep my mouth shut if my partner dressed in shorts and a Hawaiian shirt for the ballet though. He can have wrinkles in his shirt even casual type clothing with long pants but no beach clothing for the ballet!!! If I had a partner who insisted on dressing that way to the ballet I would buy a single ticket and go by myself. He would have to buy his own ticket and sit in another location. I am hardcore like that. LOL Certain things are my way or the highway.

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... in this time when opera and ballet are having trouble making ends meet I guess I should be happy that people are attending regardless of their clothing.

We will have to agree to disagree on that. Theater performance, in my eyes, doesn't start from the moment the courtain goes up, but right since you cross the entrance doors. The people beautifully dressed up, the nice conversacions around, the fine manners, the uniformed ushers, EVERYTHING becomes part of the performance. If you start taking all this elements out one by one-(which in many ocassions is just the case)-whatever happens onstage can ve seriously damaged-(the fine manners issue has an excruciating importance here, BTW). Even if one wants to concentrate and focus on what's happening up there, you're completely exposed to a ruined evening.

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... in this time when opera and ballet are having trouble making ends meet I guess I should be happy that people are attending regardless of their clothing.

We will have to agree to disagree on that. Theater performance, in my eyes, doesn't start from the moment the courtain goes up, but right since you cross the entrance doors. The people beautifully dressed up, the nice conversacions around, the fine manners, the uniformed ushers, EVERYTHING becomes part of the performance. If you start taking all this elements out one by one-(which in many ocassions is just the case)-whatever happens onstage can ve seriously damaged-(the fine manners issue has an excruciating importance here, BTW). Even if one wants to concentrate and focus on what's happening up there, you're completely exposed to a ruined evening.

I can see how you can feel that way, but one of the best nights at the opera I ever had, because the soprano was on fire, was at a matinee where there were several badly dressed people and a couple of people in shorts. I wouldn't have missed that performance if I had to do it over again. For me what is on stage is 100 times more important. I do think that rude audience members talking or letting cell phones ring (despite announcements to turn off) irritate a lot. I can tolerate a lot of coughing simply because that seems like something the person can't control, but a cell phone ringing is something that could have been controlled, and they make an announcement. I always wonder, "Why didn't that person pick up his/her cell phone when they heard the announcement and turn it off?" I guess some people zone out and aren't listening. The announcement could be an emergency to get up and exit because of some threat, and I guess they would stay seated and wonder why everyone is getting up. LOL

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Lately my level of tolerance is going sub-zero, to be honest. I wish I could just rent the entire theater and have the performance just for myself seated in the royal box...

At the very end, we're just talking about lack of elemental manners. Whatever wasn't there while growing up will have very few chances to become part of oneself. Key word: upbringing...and THAT you can easily detect my friend...

Aren't kids afraid of belt beatings any longer...? That used to work, and only getting "the look" from one's parents would get you back in control....

Oh yes, I forgot...now they're told in school to call 911 and report the parents...

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Aren't kids afraid of belt beatings any longer...? That used to work, and only getting "the look" from one's parents would get you back in control....

I believe corporal punishment for children is falling out of fashion to some extent, although not fast enough and not widely enough and plenty of parents still feel free to hit their kids, if you find that reassuring......

I can see how you can feel that way, but one of the best nights at the opera I ever had, because the soprano was on fire, was at a matinee where there were several badly dressed people and a couple of people in shorts. I wouldn't have missed that performance if I had to do it over again. For me what is on stage is 100 times more important.

I could never disregard shorts entirely, even at a matinee where clothing expectations are most relaxed, but I agree that they wouldn't spoil a good performance for me. Fortunately they turn out the lights. smile.png

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Lately my level of tolerance is going sub-zero, to be honest. I wish I could just rent the entire theater and have the performance just for myself seated in the royal box...

At the very end, we're just talking about lack of elemental manners. Whatever wasn't there while growing up will have very few chances to become part of oneself. Key word: upbringing...and THAT you can easily detect my friend...

Aren't kids afraid of belt beatings any longer...? That used to work, and only getting "the look" from one's parents would get you back in control....

Oh yes, I forgot...now they're told in school to call 911 and report the parents...

Actually, most teachers wish they could still slap some kids' faces, b/c some kids can be so completely obnoxious to you as an adult in the schools (cursing you out and calling you every name in the book, running into you on purpose sometimes, etc.), and they know there isn't a single thing you can do about it, and they know when you write them up the administration just slaps them on the wrist (more like hugs them and says, "Better not do that again!") and the parents never believe their child has misbehaved. They think teachers are making it up as if teachers have the time and energy to make up a story that Johnny threw a punch at Mary. They won't come in for a conference when their child is making straight F's in all subjects claiming they have no transportation to make it to the school, but suspend that child for a week, and see how fast that same parent with no transportation is suddenly at school before the ink dries on the referral (child calls parent on cell phone to report he is in trouble even though they are not allowed to use cell phones during school time). The parent usually screams bloody murder until the administration caves in and doesn't suspend the child for throwing a desk at a teacher or threatening to get a group to attack the teacher after school......etc.

Anyone against corporal punishment has never worked in the public schools. I got out, and I am glad. Haven't missed those 13 years of sheer heck. If I had a daughter and she said she was going into teaching, I would yell, "Over my dead body!" I would rather she strip in a bar or hook on the streets than teach public school. The public schools are the worst job in the entire world. I would rather dig ditches or shovel crap than go back. I was idealistic and thought I was going to make a difference in poor inner city kids' lives. I gave that dumb dream up.

Back to the topic of ballet: the dancers who learn to dance have the discipline in their lives that is completely lacking in the majority of the kids today. I think every parent should enroll their children into ballet so they might learn a little discipline, since there is none in the homes or in the schools (and there isn't any in the schools b/c the parents don't want any there). The well behaved students are the ones who suffer b/c there is no discipline.

Anyway, I could write a book about what goes on in the schools and people will think I made it all up, but it will all be true.

So after 13 years in public schools and witnessing CRAZY things I feel that someone showing up in shorts to the ballet (as much as I personally frown upon it) is the least of our worries as a society!!!!

All this is said with a chuckle and a tear! LOL LOL LOL I choose to laugh about it all. Otherwise, you will cry.

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Anyone against corporal punishment has never worked in the public schools.

You're wrong about that. But as you say, back to ballet. I regret that the subject of corporal punishment was ever raised and would be delighted to drop it here.

I feel that someone showing up in shorts to the ballet (as much as I personally frown upon it) is the least of our worries as a society!!!!

I'm sure we can all agree on that! Still, whatever behavior from your fellow audience members is fair game in this thread, it's what we're here for. :)

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Anyone against corporal punishment has never worked in the public schools.

You're wrong about that. But as you say, back to ballet. I regret that the subject of corporal punishment was ever raised and would be delighted to drop it here.

I feel that someone showing up in shorts to the ballet (as much as I personally frown upon it) is the least of our worries as a society!!!!

I'm sure we can all agree on that! Still, whatever behavior from your fellow audience members is fair game in this thread, it's what we're here for. smile.png

Yes, I shouldn't have gone on about it. Maybe moderator can delete it. It is a hot button topic. And a tangent.

I tried to connect it to ballet, and will try to stick to ballet now. I am actually pretty tolerant of people's behavior in general. Too much coughing gets a pass since I feel that can't be helped, but inconsiderate audience behavior like cell phones going off does make me mad momentarily.

I think the important thing is that we all draw the line in the sand at different points. Some people get mad at the coughing. I don't. I think trying to suppress a cough is the hardest thing in the world.

Some people get mad at the way people dress, and I actually do frown upon some things (like jingling bracelets at the opera), but I have to say even though I dress up for opera and ballet, I don't wear a tie, and so I might be frowned upon also. I also show up to movie transmissions of ballet and opera in cargo shorts, t-shirt and popcorn and coke. I feel it is a movie theater and a movie experience and much less like a live on stage performance even if it is live.

So my point is that we all have a different line that we draw in the sand. Some are more strict with dress code. Others don't care. I feel I tend to lean toward being strict with myself at the opera house/ballet theater when dressing but despite my inside frowning I really don't care what others wear. They are not going to ruin it for me.

Basically, what I think is correct behavior does not coincide with what the person next to me thinks. The way that person thinks will not be how many others think, etc. It goes on. No one person can decide the rules of how to behave. There are guidelines for sure. I think as long as people are fairly quiet I have no problem with them.

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Entirely not your fault, Bart. Probably I ought to have let the original post pass without comment, but we're all human.

I don't wear a tie, and so I might be frowned upon also.

I wonder about that. I see many, many tieless men in social contexts where you might expect ties. Any comment, gents?

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Should we connect the issue with ballet?, So let's do so. Last thursday, during my personal oddissey at the Nutcracker, I was able to see the differences between the old school and the new way to raise kids. On the audience side I witnessed a mother obnoxiously engaged in a furious word exchange with an usher related to her daughter, who was out of control in her seat. The usher finally left the scene in frustration, the mother kept watching the performance and the girl was NEVER reprimended, At the same time, on the stage side, Mr. Silberhaus was putting Fritz in his place in front of everyone by giving him a good spanking after the kid's attempt to ruin Clara's Nutcracker.. Fritz, unlike the girl on the audience, seemed to react to the punishment.

dirac, we all know to the degree to which physical punishment can be inflicted on kids. The idea is just to scare and embarras them in front of others, not to knock them out. The beatings to deaths cases we oftenly see around are an entire different animal.

And yes, Bart B. My mother is also a public school teacher for 40 years now, and the fact that as per today she has to listen to some kids calling her names and many other things with her hands in her pockets, because only touching them is considered "assault and battery" is just ridiculous.

When I was a kid I just needed to be shown the belt to know how to retract. Actually it NEVER had to be used, for what I remember.

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