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I don't think we can hold all of the bad things against him, sandik. I've read some really ghastly stories about the way Jackson was treated by his family as a child. A marvelous talent. I hope all goes well for his children.

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It's very bittersweet for me thinking about MJ. I was a young girl who swooned to "I'll Be There", a senior in high school when I first heard "Billie Jean" and thought to myself that this is the song of my generation. I watched in the following years as the talented man I grew to adore seemed to slowly melt away and a new unrecognizable slightly frightening MJ emerged. I was done with him completely by the time the reports of inappropriate behavior towards young boys were first being broadcast. So for me, he had already died.

I do want to pray for his family, especially his three young children. I also want to pray for Michael's soul.

I re-watched the "Don't Stop Till You Get Enough" video this morning. That's the way I prefer to remember him. Young, handsome and filled with a joyous, musical energy that seemed infinite and all enveloping.

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How can his be called phenomenal music? Please explain because it doesn't impress me as such. And exactly how much of his music was he responsible for? Did he orchestrate or score his music? What instrument(s) did he play? I don't know much about this so perhaps Sandil or someone who knows might shed some light on this.

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As sad as is this news, it's brought dance back into the forefront of news. All of the broadcast and cable-news networks have done major features on Jackson's influence in dance, with Debbi Allen and other show/B'way choreographers interviewed.

Also, related to ballet, I found the following clip from an NBC interview of Jackson very touching. When the interviewer asked MJ if it is true that classical music influences his own music, MJ said: "Absolutely. I love Tchaikovsky's 'Nutcracker Suite.' Every song (tune) in it is a hit."

I chose to remember the positive aspects of Michael. May he rest in peace and may his three children find happiness.

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I chose to remember the positive aspects of Michael. May he rest in peace and may his three children find happiness.

Agreed, that's what I'm trying to do also.

He must have had a lot of demons and did a lot that was questionable and certainly bizarre.

But I really think he was a thrilling performer with tons of charisma and hope that the memory of his career peak dominates the way he is remembered rather than his troubled final years.

May he RIP and I also wish the best to his children.

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:wink: Michael Jackson, his magic and talent stretched accross the generations, putting aside his strange ways and lifestyle, the wonder of his performances still shone through. He has now joined the select few we will always remember, Elvis Presley, Judy Garland, Marilyn Monroe, Princess Diana, Frank Sinartra. Charlie Chaplin, Anna Pavlova, Nijinsky, Ruddi Nureyev. Margot Fonteyn. May he rest in peace on heavens stage in the sky.
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How can his be called phenomenal music? Please explain because it doesn't impress me as such. And exactly how much of his music was he responsible for? Did he orchestrate or score his music? What instrument(s) did he play? I don't know much about this so perhaps Sandil or someone who knows might shed some light on this.

My impression is that he was primarily a singer and dancer. I liked his singles and bought copies of Off the Wall and Thriller back in the day but was not otherwise a big fan so my knowledge is not deep. Perhaps someone who knows more will have something to add. He spent the rest of his life trying to duplicate the success of Thriller to no avail and started repeating himself. He was an exceptionally gifted mover but I'd be hard put to call him a great dancer. He has been compared to Elvis but he didn't have as comprehensive an influence. Eventually his fame turned to notoriety and possibly criminal behavior and that's how matters ended. A canny businessman, though, cleverly buying up song catalogues like those of The Beatles at bargain prices, and only ran into debt because of his extravagance.

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I chose to remember the positive aspects of Michael. May he rest in peace and may his three children find happiness.

Agreed, that's what I'm trying to do also.

He must have had a lot of demons and did a lot that was questionable and certainly bizarre.

But I really think he was a thrilling performer with tons of charisma and hope that the memory of his career peak dominates the way he is remembered rather than his troubled final years.

May he RIP and I also wish the best to his children.

Well, yes, but he will be remembered for both--and should be, because it's just a matter of historical accuracy, And his notoriety was a big deal. There's no such thing as remembering Lana without Stompanato (whom she sometimes confessed to having killed herself, and probably did), or Sinatra without his Mob connections, even if you don't emphasize them. Michael's extreme childishness (pretending all the cosmetic suregery was 'naturel', i.e., that he hadn't had any, which is disingenuous in the extreme) is probably what endears him to some--and with some good reason. But his notoriety is of the extreme sort, and there was a great deal of undisclosed material around the various paedophile cases. There is still a lot around the Marilyn Monroe death, for another kind of example of non-disclosure of the material evidence, that is still not known, or is kept under lock and key and not known to the public.

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Alastair Macaulay has an interesting appreciation of Michael Jackson as a 'mover' in today's NYT.

To be honest, I've never paid any attention to Jackson as a performer: his music was several generations too young for my taste; but based on Macaulay's comments, I went to YouTube to watch the 'Billie Jean" video. I'll be the first to admit I can't stand pop music and after five minutes Jackson mumbling unintelligibly on the same two notes, I was really, really ready for some Frank Sinatra. But --- I couldn't take my eyes off Jackson. I don't know, maybe it wasn't really 'dancing', but in "Billie Jean" and the earlier "Don't Stop Til You Get Enough" video you can see why Fred Astaire had praise for the young Jackson; they shared a casual elegance and charm.

I hope Michael has found his peace at last.

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:yahoo:

There's no such thing as remembering Lana without Stompanato (whom she sometimes confessed to having killed herself, and probably did

:excl: Oh, now Miss Turner suddenly looks even more interesting on my eyes... :tiphat:

...still :P She IS one of the most interesting Hollywood characters, Cristian--it's just that most of it's offscreen. :P The book by her last secretary-hairdresser, Eric Root (forget the title, but it came out about 1996, just after her death), has one of the confessions in it. She had just met Laurence Olivier for the first time, but I don't know whether that caused her to lose it that time...the outburst occurred in a hotel near Lincoln Center...

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:) Returning to Michael Jackson, I cannot help wondering what the result would have been if his dance skills had been channeled into a different area. Supposing he had received classical ballet training? He was definitely a very musical person and moved with remarkable flexibility. He was almost sensual in some aspects, plus he had a very slim physique. Perhaps his life would not have had such bizarre elements. Though during the time this could have happened, it would have proven very difficult for a coloured young man to be accepted in the world of classical Ballet. When you consider Carlos Acosta. having made it, Michael Jackson, could well have succeeded had he been given the opportunity. Though in these circumstances he would have not been known for his songs.
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He has been compared to Elvis but he didn't have as comprehensive an influence. Eventually his fame turned to notoriety and possibly criminal behavior and that's how matters ended.

Although I think the influence is different, I think Jackson's is probably comparable to that of Elvis Presley. I think if Elvis was the first white man who could sing the so-called "black music" and become a star, then Michael Jackson was the first black man to crossover and become a superstar and sex symbol to both white and black audiences. I think you also have to give him credit for having the vision to see the possibilities of the music video form, and expand the vocabulary and grammar of what is possible with music videos.

And although I wouldn't call his songwriting as artful as the Beatles, Brian Wilson or Barry Gibb, he put out some very good records, and has been a direct influence on a huge segment of performers today. Although Elvis is a undeniable titan of the recording industry, I honestly don't think he was nearly as interested in the actual production of his recordings or even the nature of his material as the Beatles, Wilson, Gibb (as examples) or Jackson. Honestly, Elvis made a lot of schlocky movies and recorded some very weak songs, but he redeemed them on the basis of his magnificent vocal talent.

Sadly, like with Elvis, talent and the subsequent fame on that scale does seem to twist a person's psyche.

Though during the time this could have happened, it would have proven very difficult for a coloured young man to be accepted in the world of classical Ballet. When you consider Carlos Acosta. having made it, Michael Jackson, could well have succeeded had he been given the opportunity.

I think this is an intriguing possibility, but I can't imagine the likelihood of his success as an African-American male classical ballet student in the 1970s.

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I think if Elvis was the first white man who could sing the so-called "black music" and become a star, then Michael Jackson was the first black man to crossover and become a superstar and sex symbol to both white and black audiences.

What about Sam Cooke, Smokey Robinson and James Brown, just to name a few off the top of my head? Not to mention Muddy Waters and other bluesmen to many educated whites in the late 50's and 60's. Jackson's crossover appeal as measured by the size and breadth of his audience probably exceeded them all, but he wasn't the first to cross over as both sex symbol and highly influential performer.

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What about Sam Cooke, Smokey Robinson and James Brown, just to name a few off the top of my head? Not to mention Muddy Waters and other bluesmen to many educated whites in the late 50's and 60's. Jackson's crossover appeal as measured by the size and breadth of his audience probably exceeded them all, but he wasn't the first to cross over as both sex symbol and highly influential performer.

They never achieved stardom on Jackson’s scale. Like Michael Jordan in sports he appealed to whites and blacks in equal measure, achieving a mass audience reach not previously accomplished by an African American, as sidwich notes.

I think if Elvis was the first white man who could sing the so-called "black music" and become a star, then Michael Jackson was the first black man to crossover and become a superstar and sex symbol to both white and black audiences.

Elvis’ influence goes well beyond that, though. The landscape of the pop scene would look different without Jackson, but he never dominated it to the degree Presley did. Elvis didn’t have to be a songwriter (and it was hardly necessary with Leiber-Stoller around).

Sadly, like with Elvis, talent and the subsequent fame on that scale does seem to twist a person's psyche.

As badly off as Elvis was he never seems to have quite reached Jackson’s depths. I suspect there was something wrong with Jackson apart from death by superstardom.

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What about Sam Cooke, Smokey Robinson and James Brown, just to name a few off the top of my head? Not to mention Muddy Waters and other bluesmen to many educated whites in the late 50's and 60's. Jackson's crossover appeal as measured by the size and breadth of his audience probably exceeded them all, but he wasn't the first to cross over as both sex symbol and highly influential performer.

They never achieved stardom on Jackson’s scale. Like Michael Jordan in sports he appealed to whites and blacks in equal measure, achieving a mass audience reach not previously accomplished by an African American, as sidwich notes.

I agree about the degree of stardom, as noted above. And in appealing to whites, Jackson no doubt benefitted from the conciousness-raising that occurred through the civil rights movement. That said, I disagree that Jackson's fame differed in kind. Motown, for example, had huge crossover appeal, and was played on stations that both blacks and whites listened to. I also think Jackson's appeal to whites, great as it was, is exaggerated. There was a significant portion of the pop audience that never cared for him.

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Michael Jackson, gone :) . It's been been five days, and I'm still processing this. I grieve for him and for his children. For me, he was absolutely superlative, number one, the best, the total package of what an all around entertainer should be. Quite simply, Michael was a perfectionist. He was the total performer. He was the complete singer & dancer. I can say for myself, that when he hit the stage in concert, he hit it hard and never let up. He was happiest and most comfortable onstage, and there he gave his all, he poured out everything that was in him. His music is the soundtrack of my life. I choose to remember and celebrate only the positive things about him, and the enormous contribution that he gave to music, dance, videos, (and before his descent), his philanthropy.

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Motown, for example, had huge crossover appeal, and was played on stations that both blacks and whites listened to.

sidwich wasn’t saying that Jackson was the first black performer with real crossover appeal, just as Jordan was not the first black athlete with crossover appeal. It’s a matter of scale, reach, and how a star is perceived in the eyes of the public, all of which do make a difference when you’re talking about stardom at this level.

I can say for myself, that when he hit the stage in concert, he hit it hard and never let up.

Thanks, cygnet. I never saw him live. Would be interested to hear more from anyone who did.

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The NY Times article on the tribute at the Apollo is here:

http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/06/...-the-apollo/?hp

Al Sharpton was among the speakers:

Just before 3 p.m. the Reverend Al Sharpton, shouting “The spirit of Michael is here!” addressed the crowd, hailing Mr. Jackson as an Apollo alumnus, a spiritual son of Harlem, a talented performer and a figure who played an important role in changing the way race was perceived.

“Before Michael we were limited and ghettoized,” Mr. Sharpton told the mostly black crowd. “But Michael put on a cutaway military jacket, pulled his pants leg up, put on a white glove and smashed the barriers of segregated music.”

I can't speak as to the accuracy of these statements, but they certainly help me to appreciate the enormous influence that Jackson must have had on the area where pop culture and politics intersect.

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