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Who are (or were) the glamour ladies of ballet?

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Ravishing as that peacock is, however, I don’t think it detracts from sandik’s original point, which was that glamor is to a considerable degree a contrivance. (I think one of the word’s older meanings relates to magic, casting a spell, which is what glamorous human beings can certainly do.)

I'd forgotten the magical aspect of the word -- many thanks for the reminder!

Thinking further about this topic: I think my original example about animals might be flawed, since they do preen in order to attract attention from potential mates. So perhaps there is intention in the animal world as well. Still, I think I'd like to hold onto the difference between glamor and elegance

(and yes, peacocks look lovely and sound awful -- perhaps they have the same kind of glamor as silent film actors? Lena Lamont...)

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Re: Mae West. There seem to be elements of self-parody -- or even self-delusion -- in her film image. Can "glamour" coexist with that?

I think there's self-parody, but not self-delusion. This was an intelligent woman, who had written plays and gotten arrested for them, only to be inspired with what she saw in jail and write about that. Wrote scripts, had big power in Hollywood. I am sure she would say she was glamorous, and she ought to know.

My local PBS station just ran their series on comedy which included several extended clips of West. Talk about being aware of your affect on people!

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So perhaps there is intention in the animal world as well. Still, I think I'd like to hold onto the difference between glamor and elegance

Oh, there was never the slightest disagreement on that part. Elegance is by far the higher, although they can co-exist.

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. . . [G]lamour, in my eyes, is a whole attitude in which external image plays a key factor. Makeup and sense of fashion are truly essentials,. . .
I did think about Pavlova. The thing is that for some reason I tend to associate "glamour" with some sort of aesthetic language, in which a very obvious made up image plays the biggest role, with no room for simplicity.
I agree – glamor is to some degree self-willed. As has been noted above, a woman can be beautiful, charming, or elegant (or a combination of all three) and still not be glamorous. I think some of the examples named in this thread are wonderfully beautiful and appealing women, but I still wouldn't describe them as a glamorous. It's a tricky thing.
I don't see examples in nature of glamorous animals, while I do see elegant ones

Well, yes...animals can't change the way they look unlike humans...Still, when I read about it, one came to my mind instantly as a glamorous one

http://www.wonderfulinfo.com/amazing/wpeacock/pic01.gif

I think we can agree, then, that where there's glamour, there's also artifice. I find it hard to imagine any woman as glamorous without conspicuous makeup and a drop-dead outfit.

I think when we call a peacock glamorous, we're beginning to confuse glamour with charisma. Charisma, btw, seems to be a quality that dogs pick up on. I noticed in my dog's playgroup, the dogs and the humans were often attracted to the same people and/or dogs who had that certain aura.

In the lines sandik quotes, below, it is clear that glamour and charisma each serve to boost the other.

This is the opening paragraph of a recent article on Sylvie Guillem by Debra Craine in the Times:

"Sylvie Guillem is unbelievably elegant but she hasn't made the slightest effort. Her face is scrubbed free of make-up, her long auburn hair is tied back with casual aplomb, and she's dressed like a truck driver. Scruffy and natural - is this how ballerinas are supposed to look? Yet there has always been something extraordinary about this glamorous French artist, and no matter how much she downplays it, her innate charisma can't help but assert itself."

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I think we can agree, then, that where there's glamour, there's also artifice. I find it hard to imagine any woman as glamorous without conspicuous makeup and a drop-dead outfit.

Not to change the topic to actors, but Angelina Jolie at this year’s Oscars partially refuted the second half of your point. Jolie had taken care with her appearance but obviously hadn’t spent the entire day dolling up and I would not be surprised if the dress was one she had in her closet. She still blew everyone else away.

There are those who project a very glamorous image on stage but I can't imagine them walking around in a fur coat and sunglasses. Then there are those capable of both--Anna Netrebko, Irina Dvorovenko.

Dvorovenko, of course. :tiphat:

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Not to change the topic to actors, but Angelina Jolie at this year’s Oscars partially refuted the second half of your point. Jolie had taken care with her appearance but obviously hadn’t spent the entire day dolling up and I would not be surprised if the dress was one she had in her closet. She still blew everyone else away.

She did not have that effect on me, and never does. She is glamorous, but I do not find her beautiful, and think her face has a coarseness and hardness to it. Therefore, I do not find her especially elegant. There is no accounting for tastes, but I do not buy her number, and she does have a way of insisting that one does buy it; it's possible that that may insinuate its way into her appearance. I watched no more than 5 miniutes of the show at odd moments I would glance at it, but was only happy to see Sophia Loren, although she didn't seem to belong there.

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I think when we call a peacock glamorous, we're beginning to confuse glamour with charisma. Charisma, btw, seems to be a quality that dogs pick up on. I noticed in my dog's playgroup, the dogs and the humans were often attracted to the same people and/or dogs who had that certain aura.

Interesting distinction. I think you can be charismatic certainly without being glamorous (President Bill Clinton springs to mind). But I think Charisma is probably an essential element in glamour.

I don't really see that peacocks are charismatic though. Charisma is, to me, a force of personality that I don't see that one can ascribe to an entire species of birds.

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I think when we call a peacock glamorous, we're beginning to confuse glamour with charisma. Charisma, btw, seems to be a quality that dogs pick up on. I noticed in my dog's playgroup, the dogs and the humans were often attracted to the same people and/or dogs who had that certain aura.

Interesting distinction. I think you can be charismatic certainly without being glamorous (President Bill Clinton springs to mind). But I think Charisma is probably an essential element in glamour.

I don't really see that peacocks are charismatic though. Charisma is, to me, a force of personality that I don't see that one can ascribe to an entire species of birds.

I too see charisma as a force of personality, a power of attraction. In regards to elegance . . . well, spirituality is probably an overused word, but I do think of elegance as an inner quality, especially in comparison to glamour, which, however delightful and alluring it can be, seems trivial and superficial and superimposed (whether by the person or the audience or both) in comparison.

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Tatiana Grantzeva was very glamourous. She always dressed so gorgeously to teach class...like Danilova. Tatiana wore matching bright blue leotard and knee-length skirt, pink tights with pink teaching shoes, and always had her head swathed in a white turban, wearing pearl or diamond earrings. Very elegant and glamourous teaching attire! She was a beauty! And, she was a fabulous teacher! Perhaps rg can find a photo of her...

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Tatiana Grantzeva was very glamourous. She always dressed so gorgeously to teach class...like Danilova. Tatiana wore matching bright blue leotard and knee-length skirt, pink tights with pink teaching shoes, and always had her head swathed in a white turban, wearing pearl or diamond earrings. Very elegant and glamourous teaching attire!

A wonderful memory, Gina. Diamonds and pearls! :)

We haven't been talking much about teaching attire, wihch is another kind of "being on stage" for an artist. It would be fascinating to hear other members' memories -- or current experiences -- of especially glamourous teaachers.

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Going even further in the subject of ballet/glamour/peacocks... :)

http://www.artsjournal.com/tobias/archives...5700r-thumb.jpg

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Cristian, I know I've seen that photo of the ballerina/white peacock. :) Who? What? is it?

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Thirty or forty years ago, my wife and I observed a class at SAB taught by Alexandra Danilova. Talk about glamour! (or glamor), she was its epitome, not to mention having gorgeous legs. And she was most gracious to us, because, as she reminded her students, "this is your public."

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Maya Plisetskaya always was and still is very glamorous.

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Farrell, I also remember Danilova in her older years. New York City was full of such ladies -- many of them Russian, as I remember it. As a younger person, I was fasciinated at their connection to history and by their dedication to the arts. I guess I always assumed they would be with us always and that their New York City would be, too.

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Cristian, I know I've seen that photo of the ballerina/white peacock. :lol: Who? What? is it?

She is Marina Franca, a ballerina who danced for Les Ballets Russes de Montecarlo from 1938-1940. (cute costume, right...? :D )

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Thanks, sandik, for the article.

Dirac has started a new thread -- on the "femme fatale" -- here:

http://ballettalk.invisionzone.com/index.p...c=29040&hl=

You'll find another link to sandik's article there.

Perhaps it makes sense for general discussion of femmes fatales, etc., to be posted on the new thread.

Please keep this thread for "glamour ladies of ballet." Thanks.

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I dont think you can get more glam that Irina Dvorovenko right now. Not only is she an incredible ballerina, her modeling and lifestyle screams glamorous Visiting her in her dressing room (my husband is a close friend with both Ira and Max, they graduated together in Kiev), changing into a pair of jeans, she was just exsquisite! Here is a link to her modeling photos...

Irina Dvorovenko 1

to be so beautiful and talented!

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For old-time, filmstar, glamour I'd go for Lorena Feijoo. I can just imagine her on one of the Ballets Russes whistle-stop tours, stepping down out of the train in the morning to be interviewed for the 87th time, in full make-up, a suit and heels and a gorgeous hat.

Yesterday when she came out from her dressing room her whole being screamed glamour: hair, makeup, the dress...the works. Definitely Feijoo. (One could tell she worked carefully on it too... :o )

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Marvellous! Thanks, Cristian. It goes to show one element of "glamour" that we haven't mentioned so far -- the importance of port de bras & epaulement. Feijoo is at a disadvantage at the start of this clip: she enters on crutches and has to sit in what looks like a rather awkward armchair. Yet every upper body movement is elegant, fluid, completely graceful.

Voice is important, too. Feijoo's is fairly deep and quite welll-modulated. She pronounces her words clearly. Her pace is adagio. She thinks before she speaks.

Many dancers today don't do well in interviews. If the voice is high-pitched, chirpy, or erratically paced .. if diction is sloppy ... if "perky" is the goal .... then "glamour" probably will not be the result.

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Many dancers today don't do well in interviews. If the voice is high-pitched, chirpy, or erratically paced .. if diction is sloppy ... if "perky" is the goal .... then "glamour" probably will not be the result.

That's very true. Many, perhaps most, dancers have poor speaking voices. I have to remind myself that they're discouraged from "belly breathing" from early childhood. With dancers the voice is frequently stuck in the throat without much "support" from below. Even low-pitched voices are often the result of smoking and have little resonance. It would be interesting to compare the speaking styles of ballet dancers with their brethren on Broadway, who have to reconcile seemingly incompatible breathing techniques for dancing and singing.

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I don't see the techniques for ballet and classical (opera) singing as incompatible, but perhaps musical theatre vocal technique is different. As ballet is a silent art, it is only natural that few professional ballet dancers would have vocal training.

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