Another anti-culture rant

[dirac]

Now there are all sorts of question as to whether she was a good choice for the assignment and whether the choices of opera were appropriate (because it all does smell of "set up to fail"), but the piece is about her personal experiences going to the opera and whether she would go again rather than attempting any objective critique of the operas themselves.

A fair point.

[Estelle]

Leigh, thanks for the link ! I'm not especially a rugby fan, but like to watch matches from time to time with my dad (mostly for the pleasure of asking him silly questions about rugby rules ) and remember when Castaignède was the wonder boy of the Stade Toulousain and of the French rugby team, in the mid-1990s.

Actually he could have had opportunities to see some operas in his home town, as the Capitole de Toulouse is said to have quite a good opera programming, and has an orchestra with a very good reputation (its present director, since 1990, is Nicolas Joël, who will be the successor of Gérard Mortier in a year)- and it also has a ballet company lead by Nanette Glushak since 1994.

There was nothing really new in that small video, but he looked good-natured and open-minded, and willing to appreciate what he was shown.

[GoCoyote!]

......I suppose what bothers me most is that - this type of article gets published (with its dearth of real information, sadly), and that there appears to be a very strong leaning toward anti-intellectualism, yes, even towards proud-ignorance in society in general and echoed in the press.

That is scary.

The world needs thinkers and ponderers - more than ever before, and not only in the area of music-critics.

It appears that non-thinkers are poised to take over (slightly exaggerating here...), and the results will not be positive.

-d-

I agree 100%

Yes it is very scary.

And I do not think you are exaggerating.

As for Ms. Barton, I think people are maybe reading too much into this feature and its writer. I just mean I don't think she/ her feature can be taken seriously enough to deserve much analysis, as it is clearly just trashy, stupid journalism... like reading "opera is boring and for toffs - rock rules!" written on the toilet wall, only in this case the toilet wall is The Guardian. Insert quip here: ............................ But just how this can get published in a national newspaper can be analyzed and taken seriously though. Especially as, like others have pointed out already, it looks like a completely set up article, who's only purpose is to grab the reader's attention rather than 'earn it', with the use of a silly 'provocative' title, which also turns out to contain the entire moronic 'plot' of the feature, which turns out to be no more than a continuous flow of inane drivel as if attempting to put the reader in such a state of stupification they can hardly appreciate, or remember, what decent article might look like. It is basically spicy writing to cover up rotting ingredients and a terrible cook - just a cheap trick! And in that sense not worth bothering with ...... except that this approach gets doubly offensive when used to write about something of genuine substance and value (regardless of taste) such as well established, high quality art ...... hence the number of responses here, I guess. If you are going to write inanely best to stick to writing about inanities.

As for the subject of rock/ pop/ classical (I can't quite remember exactly what I am responding to here but nevermind!) I think it is difficult to make comparisons. In all genres musicians can be trained to play/ compose 'by numbers'. Likewise each genre also allows skill, or even genius to be expressed - albeit in different ways. And as for levels of audience sophistication/ inteligence/ intellectual prowess - I think in at least in rock, jazz and classical genres this probably varies pretty much equally, although they may all express themselves slightly differently depending on social group and/or class (and so be open to much misinterpretation). The unifying/ leveling ability of great art on any audience made up of diverse and rarely interacting people could have been explored by Ms. Barton .... had she actually wanted to write a grown up feature and not just talk about wanting to spit on someone's hair.

Certainly the skills needed to (for example) bring someone to tears/ euphoria or tell a story or whatever with a three minute pop song vs. a three hour opera may be very different, but the level of genius to achieve both might be exactly the same. And that is of course is another interesting area Ms. Barton could have explored ..... had she actually wanted to write a grown up feature etc etc

I also wrote an enormous amount about the most crucial aspect of this - the dumbing down of our society, ridiculing/ disregarding of all things remotely intellectual/ thoughtful and a whole thing about how 'human orientated art' is being abandoned in exchange for 'technology based stimulus' ...... about how art and technology is undergoing a role reversal (especially in the case of pop music) such that art is quickly becoming essentially a medium through which new consumer technology is being expressed.

However it all seemed to stray rather off topic! Another time/ thread perhaps ........ fascinating stuff though - even if I do say so myself!

[sidwich]

Has anyone actually seen the productions mentioned in the article? And if so, are they actually good?

[Helene]

About "proximity of discipline", sportswriters who normally don't cover figure skating are notorious for writing "humorous" articles making fun of it, yet the same sportswriters (or the same jock type of sportswriter) can be very respectful of ballet and recognize the physical ability, conditioning, and training of male dancers.

It reminds me of a story from the book "Holy Days." An old Jewish woman was on a bus in the US and castigated a Hassidic Jew, a fellow rider, for being backward and setting back people's perception of Jews. When he said he was Amish, she lauded him for maintaining his values.

[Mashinka]

I found this on the Beeb web site today:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/7598549.stm

Although I find this just another of those tedious pieces of research telling us the glaringly obvious, in the context of this thread it's rather amusing seeing as the qualities possessed by lovers of opera are:

High self-esteem

creative

gentle

Whereas rock fans:

Low self-esteem

creative

not hard-working

not outgoing

gentle

at ease

'Rock chick' Barton certainly ticked some of those bxes.

[Hans]

I can't say I'll be taking the results of that study very seriously. People love to pigeonhole others based on various characteristics, but as far as I can tell, it doesn't serve much of a purpose other than to reinforce the "us vs. them" mentality when the arts should, in my opinion, be working to bring us together rather than push us apart.

[dirac]

Very true, Hans.

[Mashinka]

This is how the ROH markets its production of Don Giovanni:

http://www.roh.org.uk/video/index.html?bcp...ctid=1581481217

I'm told the two girls are characters from a popular soap. ROH opera regulars are up in arms about this one, though it is quite amusing and it is an accurate synopsis of the story line.

[Memo]

OH I love it great marketing. All the video clips on there are excellent.

[Helene]

I love it!!!!

Especially considering that for all the flack opera (and ballet) gets about unrealistic plots and big emotions, surely the story of "Don Giovanni" is more plausible than say,

Marlena is possessed by the devil, who is exorcised by a guy who's memory has been wiped out, and who originally came back to Salem as her late husband (post tragic accident and post plastic surgery), who happened to be a priest, and who eventually marries her at least twice as himself, although two decades later, who "himself" is is still up for grabs ("Days of Our Lives")

The Cassadines have some device that will freeze the world if the world does not come up with the ransom the Cassadines demand, only for the world to be saved by Luke, Laura, a secret agent with an Australian accent, and his girlfriend Tiffany, a super-model who stumbles around on stilettos on the secret island where the device is kept ("General Hospital").

Just sayin...

[papeetepatrick]

I think this is good too, and reminds me of young girls doing something along the lines of Saunders and French--and they're both really cute in it here.

[bart]

Brilliant! Thanks, Mashinka.

The promo does not define opera as the enemy. Nor does it seek to make the average guy feel better by putting down opera as something phony, pretentious, or airy-fairy. Her response actually reminds me of Ilya's (the character played by Melina Mercouri in Never on Sunday) describing with wonder the plot of Medea, relishing the details but ever-so-slightly missing the larger point. This approach builds bridges -- always a good thing in the arts, I think.

I only wish the young woman had mentioned the music.

[Mashinka]

Now here's something interesting, The Guardian (again) sends Charlotte Higgins outside her comfort zone to some rock venues. Her reactions are far less prejudiced than her colleague's were when confronted by opera. The writing is quite a bit better too, here is her reacton to Metallica.

I am sent upstairs to a seated area, relieved not to be standing below, where later the repressed rhythmic nodding and jerky movements of the audience will resolve themselves into terrifying, ricocheting leaps. There are women here, but the vibe is deeply male. Nothing could have prepared me from the musical attack, the violent assault of sound that ensues. There does seem to be an upper line going on, but what is mostly in evidence is a grinding bass. I experience this evening as an unpleasant vibration between the sternum and jaw bone.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/nov/0...-opera-pop-rock

I also like the bit about having been raised by wolves in the grounds of the Paris Conservatoire.

[papeetepatrick]

This actually makes the old Laura Barton 'anti-opera article' make sense, esp. since she was Higgins's guide. Naturally the 'classical person' is going to experience it in a way that we sympathize with, but all the inaccuracies and literal untruths about Barton's own article now make sense, she did write about it as she saw it, and by now I find them about equally (mildly) interesting. It's like a kind of linguistic difference, and you can hear the different kinds of rhythms, as it were, in either, now that this one has been put next to the other one. The Barton one by itself just seems paltry, but now it seems more of a useful insider look, however rough and warty, than it did before.

[bart]

That sense of sheer physical discomfort -- the body's absorbtion of the sound (especially the bass) and the way it vibrates inside you -- is familiar from my own attempts to handle this sort of thing several decades ago.

The key issue seems to be one of "familiarity" or "unfamiliarity," a term that Higgins actually uses later in her piece. Many of us who love the classical arts might identify with one version or other of thie following -- youthful love of classical music, restrictions on pop music in the house, playing a classical instrument, etc.

Whereas other teenagers slammed the door and turned up Joy Division or the Cure, I lay on my bed moodily listening to late Beethoven or Shostakovich quartets. My mother banned pop music from the house and I suppose I hadn't the gumption to protest. "Raised by wolves in the grounds of the Paris Conservatoire," as a colleague once put it. It wasn't meant as a compliment.

So I don't have a pop-music hinterland. I don't hear an old track and have an instant Proustian recall of what it felt, smelt and tasted like to be the person who first heard that song in, say, 1987 - although I can precisely recall the sound of the scuffling chairs and gliding arpeggios as the instruments tune up on my long-lost tape, taken from a Radio 3 broadcast, of the Brahms Clarinet Quintet. I imagine I experience a similar mild alienation from pop as many people my age do from classical music.

As she enters the concert environment, she feels herself looking for familiar things and being intimidated by the unfamiliar or unexpected:

Getting in and finding my seat (will there be seats?) is the first hurdle. I am suddenly aware that there's a system that's second nature to most of the people milling around, but is completely alien to me. Many people talk about the barriers that classical music presents because people feel uncomfortable about "how to go to a concert". The same works the other way round. In either case, it's nothing mysterious; just simple unfamiliarity.

Inside the auditorium, I feel at home: I recognise the building as by Frank Matcham, the Edwardian architect who built the London Coliseum, the base of English National Opera. To be specific, it's as the Colly might look after a short but brutal war. I like the beat-up feel. Laura and I chat through the support, as does everyone else. I tell Laura my knowledge of American folk music starts and ends with composer Ruth Crawford Seeger, the mother of Peggy and Mike Seeger and stepmother of Pete. [ ... ]

I don't quite know what youthful barbarianism I had expected, but the chat in the bar seems to be of people's holidays in Venice.

She's a journalist, a sensitive soul, so she looks for things to identify with. At the Metallica concert, however, she looks but finds nothing even close to her prior experience, aesthetic values, or sense of comfort/discomfort. When she finds herself overpowered by the "grinding base," it may be because she -- unlike many in the audience -- is aware of all those other musical values that are being ignored or neglected. She may be confused about what Metallica is, but she understands quite well what it is NOT.

I try to imagine it in the reverse direction. Think about what it would be like to have to sit still for hours reading Jane Austin if you'rer someone who's idea of free time is playing fast-moving computer games with violent plots. Or dressing up like your grandparents and sitting for hours and hours and hours, quietly (no cell phones! ), without moving :blush: , at a performance of Parsifal.

Unfamiliar territory makes us feel insecure, disoriented, phsyically uncomfortable. In the recent political history of the U.S., and possibly other countries, there have been those who have tried to exploit such feelings, attaacking educational and cultural elites as alien and somehow threatening and anti-democratic.

[Hans]

One thing that is clear is that the classical writer's musical education gave her something to hold on to at the pop concerts--she could analyse the music, relate it to what she had previously experienced, &c., in a way that Laura Barton could not--she could only say that it was boring.

[bart]

Great point, Hans -- and a rather interesting argument in favor of classical music education. It opens doors ...