bart

Are the images of ballet in pop culture getting better?

36 posts in this topic

Generally, I think of popular culture as being rather anti-ballet. But here's a Nike commercial (courtesy of YouTube) in which allet and hip-hop interact rather charmingly. (It's from Russia, so this might not be surprising.)

And here's one from the U.S. (10 years old or so) which rather surprised me: the National Basketball Association making connections between their sport and ballet????

Neither of these examples is from the recent past. Does anyone have any thoughts about how, generally, is ballet doing in the commercialized pop culture world right now -- throughout the world? I mean -- in terms of coverage and respect. Is it holding it's own (as the Nike and NBA commercials suggest). Or is it still the the cultured face they love to throw the pies at?

Share this post


Link to post
Does anyone have any thoughts about how, generally, is ballet doing in the commercialized pop culture world right now -- throughout the world? I mean -- in terms of coverage and respect. Is it holding it's own (as the Nike and NBA commercials suggest). Or is it still the the cultured face they love to throw the pies at?

Good questions, bart. As for my own experience, i absolutely HATE the fact that everytime i see a commercial on TV in which ballet is involved, 99 % of chances are that it's a "funny" -(aka silly/horrendous)- thing making fun of the art form. In other words, pleeeeease, leave the "Dance of the Little Swans" aloooooooooooong!!! Get some new ideas, for Christ sake...the joke is getting old. :bow:

Share this post


Link to post

In Australia there is a large audience for ballet considering how sports mad we are supposed to be,yet to my horror anytime a any media outlet wants to get a laugh they put some big yobbo footballer in a Tutu. I think it is changing but slowly.

Share this post


Link to post
In Australia there is a large audience for ballet considering how sports mad we are supposed to be,yet to my horror anytime a any media outlet wants to get a laugh they put some big yobbo footballer in a Tutu. I think it is changing but slowly.

Ugh, it's deppressing...and :)

Share this post


Link to post

Um, I don't know if anyone on here saw Step Up 2 (I can make no excuses).. but I was a little annoyed with how ballet dancers were presented. The idea of the movie (this is greatly simplified) is that Andie, our hero, is pretty much forced to go to this fancy arts school to keep her out of trouble. She is a hip hop dancer and her teachers try to make her learn ballet. All of these scenes seem contrived to make ballet look ridiculous, though--like when her teacher tries to move her into a position and she falls down or says it's not natural or it hurts, &c. Her teacher (played by Will Kemp, who formerly danced for Matthew Bourne--it looks like he's moved into acting now, sadly) is this sort of stereotype uptight, elitist caricature of what someone who likes ballet is like. It seemed like they made him an ex-ballet dancer so as to automatically turn the audience against him. At one part, he leapt about demonstrating moves to Andie, and and the audience burst out laughing, presumably at the idea of a guy doing ballet. I don't know. It was kind of depressing.

Oh, and they gave him lines like: "I think we’d all agree that talent comes from mastering technique."

There's also a part at the beginning that was interesting. Andie is about to audition for the school, and a girl is auditioning before her. It's ballet although for some reason she's not in pointe shoes. A guy watching (a hip hop dancer) says dismissively, "Bunch of clones." As the girl walks past Andie on her way out of the building, she says "Nailed it" in a bratty tone. Throughout the movie, the ballerinas were the "mean girls" of the school, though one randomly turns nice at the end.

I think I'd managed to persuade myself the popular view of ballet was not that bad, but this movie convinced me otherwise.

I haven't seen the first Step Up but apparently it's about a female ballet dancer and a male hip hop dancer. I would love to see a teen movie about a male ballet dancer and a female hip hop dancer..

Share this post


Link to post
I haven't seen the first Step Up but apparently it's about a female ballet dancer and a male hip hop dancer. I would love to see a teen movie about a male ballet dancer and a female hip hop dancer..

Now wouldn't that be an interesting plot? And unfortunately, I'm sure it would die a fast death at the box office.

Share this post


Link to post

I wasn't familiar with Step Up or its sequel, so thanks for that summary, fadedhour. I checked it out on the imdb website and found this:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0462590/

Like you, I guess I thought that things were a little better as far as respect for ballet in the movies is concerned. Just imagine if this kind of prejudice were reversed: with a grand snob like the Duchess of Krakenthorp featured in a plot that demonizes hip hop aesthetics as a way of glorifying the minute or gavotte. ("Quel scandale!")

Why can't people just enjoy what they enjoy without having to attack alternate forms of artistic expression (and the people who devote their lives to them)? Cultural populists seem to be most guilty of this nowadays. Cultural elitists -- if such a thing exists anymore -- seem to have folded their tents and given up the war of words.

Anyway, most ballet people I know enjoy and appreciate (even admire) many forms of dancing. Many even participate in other kinds of dance. Here's a very brief video of two young Miami City Ballet Dancers -- Daniel Baker and Alex Wong -- performing a tribute to something called "power cheerleading."

Share this post


Link to post

Bart, you have totally just made my day! I am a huge Alex Wong fan, after seeing him while he was with ABTII. I also remember that song from a brief foray into high school dance team (I wonder if our choreography was better?)... but that's about all I should say about my youth...!

You know, looking back, I don't think I ever thought of ballet as 'not cool' when I was young, and I think I really owe this to my parents, and to shows like Sesame Street and Mr. Rogers - I clearly remember Mr. Rogers visiting the Pittsburgh Steelers and showing Lynn Swann in ballet class. I also remember someone on Sesame Street... I don't remember who? Of course, I'm speaking as a female, and I grew up in an area where most children did some sort of artistic endeavour, from choir to band to drama to ballroom.....

Although some folks in the UK hated it, I LOVED this season's Royal Ballet promotion with Ed Watson. (There's a story about the promo here: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/this-...son-456166.html and I posted a topic about it here on the sister board: http://dancers.invisionzone.com/index.php?...=36374&hl=) Whatever, the statistics might not be right. What is it they say about lies, damned lies, and statistics? Moreover, my male friends thought it was 'cool' and asked questions about how hard it is to be a dancers, and my male *dancing* friends adopted a new line. I also thought last Christmas' Gap ad with Roberto Bolle and Greta Hodgkins was cool.

My biggest pet peeve, however, is the continuing 'pinkification' of ballet and, in general, of young girls (if anyone has been to Hamley's in London - ugh, that place is an epitome of the gender divide...). I love that Angelina Ballerina and the like inspire girls to dance, but must it all be in such overtly frilly manners? The Royal Ballet has a new set of dolls out (ugly, in my opinion, but hey...) - and they are all princesses and fairies. I completely admit to giving in to the trend when I took a friend's daughter to her first ballet outing - and she was adorable - but it all seemed overly gendered to me.

Share this post


Link to post

This is an interesting problem. Pop culture and the classic arts do not mix like oil and water. They might, at best inhabit the same "media" at times but merge they can't. There will always be cross over efforts and the new guys will always find themselves reaching back into our cultural past for "things" to re package and re use in their own present / modernist manner.

Marketing is another matter altogether and here ballet companies are faced with getting people into the seats to stay in the black or not bleed to much red and depend on "hand outs" from gov and arts patrons. What marketers are doing is trying to find ways to package classical arts which appeal to the "unwashed masses".... ooops I mean the popular culture raised on MTV and so forth. Of course many of the "artists" in classic companies are also "interested in" and participate in popular /crossover efforts.

What we need is a media which presents classic arts, to a receptive educated and respectful public without dumbing it down foe the MTV crowd. My two cents.

Share this post


Link to post

There's a nice representation of ballet in a Heineken commercial. The theme is paying it forward and a ballerina in her tutu is one of the people receiving and then paying the bottles of beer forward. I'm not a big fan of the commercial itself, but it's nice to see ballet as just another part of life, rather than something to ridicule. Interesting to note: the ballerina is average sized, thus avoiding the ballerina as emaciated-and-suffering-stereotype we often get in mainstream venues.

Share this post


Link to post

From where I see it it's doing worse.

Let's consider the Simpsons as a case study. After all it's been popular for 20 years now. There were more than a few references in the show's first decade and they were largely neutral/positive. Not so lately.

{For those who don't watch the show Bart is the cool bad boy and Lisa is his studious, idealistic, hollier than thou sister. Marge and Homer are the parents}

About 15 years ago:

There was the memorable episode where Bart arrives late to a physical activity signup, to find that the only spot left is one in the girl's ballet class. The teacher is a strict but sympathetic red haired Russian (obviously modeled on Maya). Ballet is described as something that requires strength and character beneath the pink sparkly exterior. Bart is unwilling at first but soon love of dance takes over and he really starts to enjoy it. As the school recital approaches he realises the danger of getting beaten up by the school bullies and decides to dance in a mask. His dancing is a tremendous success (the bullies watch ecstatic and weep) and he, carried away, decides to unmask and declare his love for ballet. Not a minute later the bullies are on his back and he ends the episode lying injured in a ditch.

Despite the end (and some stereotypical jokes in the middle) the overall tone was positive (Bart is the cool kid after all)

There was also another episode back then, where Homer does not want to go to the ballet and Marge goes with a wild friend of hers to see some touring Russian company. The dancers are portrayed as strong, graceful, athletic and sexy. Then the episode turns into Thelma and Louise and Homer ends up in a police car that's chasing after Marge and her friend. [Homer: "Ahhhh! Marge has turned into a wild criminal just because I didn't take her to the ballet!" Police chief: "That is exactly how Dillinger got started" Homer: "Really?"]

More recently:

Only last month there was an episode all about ballet. Marge reveals that ballet is yet one more in her long series of unfulfilled dreams and urged by Lisa she takes up class again. The teacher is portrayed as a vain, abusive, cruel man, who makes people cry and dismisses Marge as soon as she makes a mistake. Then he notices Lisa's feet in first position and signs her on. Unsurprisingly she finds ballet hard at first. But soon her classmates let her into their dirty secret for remaining focused and thin: "for every ballerina in the world it's cigarettes!" they declare. They are all indeed smoking like chimneys. Lisa quickly becomes addicted to second hand smoke. At the performance night (Sleeping Beauty) Homer removes all cigarettes from their dressing room and the dancers go beserk ("oh no! my appetite is coming back!") and attack the crowd looking for a smoke. At this point Lisa addresses everyone.

This is what she says word for word: "I wanna talk about a horrible practice affecting millions of Americans. For years we've known how dangerous it is. It stunts your growth and it's marketed to children! I'm talking about BALLET!! Ballet is unnatural and unfair to women. I shall now cast off these shoes of oppression!" (takes off pointes and throws them to teacher)

I don't know what was worse, this incredible anti-ballet manifesto or the fact that smoking was actually shown to positively affect their performance (they were falling over without it) But 15 years ago ballet got respect (and gentle humor) from this show.

Share this post


Link to post

[ "I wanna talk about a horrible practice affecting millions of Americans. For years we've known how dangerous it is. It stunts your growth and it's marketed to children!

Shouldn't this apply more to gymnastics than ballet?

Share this post


Link to post

Ballet certainly doesn't stunt your growth.

Share this post


Link to post
Only last month there was an episode all about ballet. Marge reveals that ballet is yet one more in her long series of unfulfilled dreams and urged by Lisa she takes up class again. The teacher is portrayed as a vain, abusive, cruel man, who makes people cry and dismisses Marge as soon as she makes a mistake. Then he notices Lisa's feet in first position and signs her on. Unsurprisingly she finds ballet hard at first. But soon her classmates let her into their dirty secret for remaining focused and thin: "for every ballerina in the world it's cigarettes!" they declare. They are all indeed smoking like chimneys. Lisa quickly becomes addicted to second hand smoke. At the performance night (Sleeping Beauty) Homer removes all cigarettes from their dressing room and the dancers go beserk ("oh no! my appetite is coming back!") and attack the crowd looking for a smoke. At this point Lisa addresses everyone.

This is what she says word for word: "I wanna talk about a horrible practice affecting millions of Americans. For years we've known how dangerous it is. It stunts your growth and it's marketed to children! I'm talking about BALLET!! Ballet is unnatural and unfair to women. I shall now cast off these shoes of oppression!" (takes off pointes and throws them to teacher)

As a former dancer who is at an age where I'm watching some of my perfectly capable female ex-colleagues turn into crazy, controlling/self-deprecating ballet ladies right before my very eyes, I found this pretty funny. It is satire, after all. Do we think this is really representative of a larger trend?

Share this post


Link to post
Ballet certainly doesn't stunt your growth.

I have a friend at work. His son is way into football, and he shows me all his newspaper grid iron clippings, and of course, I show him all my proud mama ballet pictures. As disparate as the two activities may seem, through our conversations we have found common issues and common concerns. ( one of our better ones was about "muscle memory" which is a very interesting concept.) Anyhoo, when he understood the nature of my daughter's schedule (not just Sept thru Jan, but throughout most of the year!) he was very impressed, and commented about how all that activity was beneficial to her growth.

I think, tho I can't be sure, he was specifically speaking to bone growth. And although many friends and family look at us and call her my "clone", her leg bones are definitely longer than mine. ( I was never a dancer.) Sorry for deviating from the topic, just wanted to emphasize that Hans comment has real merit!

Share this post


Link to post
As a former dancer who is at an age where I'm watching some of my perfectly capable female ex-colleagues turn into crazy, controlling/self-deprecating ballet ladies right before my very eyes, I found this pretty funny. It is satire, after all. Do we think this is really representative of a larger trend?
Well it was funny, particularly the dancer desperately trying to smoke the cigarette on a non-smoking sign.

But no, it's not just satire, it crosses the line to anti-ballet polemic with that final statement. Lisa is clearly delivering whatever message the viewer is to take away.

There were other mentions of ballet over the years, I'm afraid I don't really remember them, but they also contributed to a vague impression that ballet was more respected on the Simpsons in the past.

It's hard to tell if it's a general trend but this BT thread is largely anecdotal after all and the Simpsons certainly worth mentioning being as they are a not insignificant part of pop culture for the last 20 years.

Share this post


Link to post

Just last night on non commercial TV( i.e govt sponsored ) a variety program had a piece called "Men in Tutus" Yes you've guessed, it was even worse than trocoderos. A take off of Swan Lake in false eyelashes and blue eyeshadow so vile as to stunt my growth for sure. Cringeworthy to the extreme. Until society doesnt need to massage gender difference we're going to get this stuff - but this is, I think, different from the sense of belonging to a different physical team. The gender reinforcement is one thing , but baracking for a different form of phsysical activity is another.

Share this post


Link to post

My first question is how much pop culture actually influences attitudes or is it more of a reflection of existing attitudes. Because I tend to believe the later, I’m not sure that the portrayal of ballet in pop culture is changing very much because I’m not sure that the attitude about ballet overall is changing very much.

To me, the challenge of the image of ballet lies deep in its roots, from its beginning as a court dance, as an activity associated with elitism. Regardless of what the reality might often be, children whose families can afford ballet classes are often seen as privileged and people who can afford to often attend major performances have plenty of disposal income. In a society that prides itself on populism, this has created a degree of tension and has made ballet an easy target for elitism satire.

Unfortunately, there are proponents on both sides that continue to perpetuate the view of ballet being for the elite. Pop culture likes to present ballet as still belonging to the wealthy and to the “highbrows.” Alternatively, proponents of ballet not uncommonly view pop culture as representing the “unwashed masses,” whose interests are somehow beneath them. I would go so far as saying that some even use their interest in ballet as “proof” of their “more refined” status over the less enlightened, further fueling the image of elitism.

I think it is interesting that where class differences have be institutionally eliminated (at least in theory), such as the Soviet Union and Cuba, the acceptance and appreciation of ballet has grown. The people in these countries apparently ceased to view ballet as a province of the elite and began to claim it for the “masses” themselves. Equally interesting, it is the so-called pop culture that often declined under these conditions. (I am only offering this as an observation and am in no way advocating the means these countries used to achieve this turn of events.)

Pessimistically, I don’t think pop culture will change much until the attitudes they reflect change. Overall, in spite of the Simpson’s example, in my opinion, I’m not sure things have gotten worse but neither do I think they have necessarily gotten any better. Again, I believe it is probably a reflection of little change of the overall popular attitude toward ballet.

Optimistically, my biggest hope for a change in attitudes toward ballet is the growth in local companies, both in number and quality. Certainly an economic downturn will hurt them, but if we can continue to support them, I believe this will be one of the best ways to show the accessibility of ballet to everyone, not just the ones who can afford to see a few major performances a year. When that starts happening, we can start shedding the image of elitism and make ballet into more of a populist movement. When that happens, that is when we will start seeing the real changes in pop culture.

Share this post


Link to post
Unfortunately, there are proponents on both sides that continue to perpetuate the view of ballet being for the elite. Pop culture likes to present ballet as still belonging to the wealthy and to the “highbrows.†Alternatively, proponents of ballet not uncommonly view pop culture as representing the “unwashed masses,†whose interests are somehow beneath them. I would go so far as saying that some even use their interest in ballet as “proof†of their “more refined†status over the less enlightened, further fueling the image of elitism.

A very thoughtful response, but I'm going to limit my response to the paragraph above. I think this can be true, although I find that the kind of elitism that is often practised in the ballet world is that of the collector, the fan, or the connoisseur (rather than, say, the "intellectual elite"). This sometimes results in a tolerance of very coarse productions--i.e., ballets about Dracula, baseball, Darfur, etc.; tacky "contemporary" solos in international competitions, etc. The snobbery in these cases is all aimed at how dancers dance, but does not extend to quality of choreography, music, scenery, lighting, etc. I guess this happens in opera a lot too--people will kill to hear favorite singers sing anything, and in any venue.

Share this post


Link to post
Just last night on non commercial TV( i.e govt sponsored ) a variety program had a piece called "Men in Tutus" Yes you've guessed, it was even worse than trocoderos.

What's wrong with the Trockaderos?

Share this post


Link to post

This question topic is somewhat of a tautology in that ballet is not part of popular culture, not intended to be, very much the way other forms of high art are not.

The two types of cultures carve out and define the broader way we define a culture in general. The USA is dominated by pop culture which only occasionally makes a foray into what is considered high culture to borrow technique, metaphor, images etc... established cultural icons. But it will al most always revise, reform and re invent them. Modern dance has this relationship to classic ballet.

Dance in popular culture seems mostly about participation of the people in a social context - doing it - as opposed to the performance "arts" which are viewed from a seat in a theater. Pop culture is in a constant process of renewal and redefinition and classic ballet is more about preserving, perfecting and protecting a bit of history... something that is an anathema to pop culture. Of course some creations from pop culture do have staying power and become the "classic" of their era, define it and the rest of it seems to fade.

The issue for those interested in the high arts is preserving it. Unlike a painting or a building, dance is of the moment, lining is a stretch of time, and even video recordings are but a shadow of the real experience. The tradition and knowledge of ballet requires rigorous training, and it is essentially being passed from person to person through time. This is one of the special things about classic ballet which makes it so precious to those who love it. And this process is completely absent in pop culture which is completely fad driven.

Elitism has an awful sound to it and ballet being associated with the elite is most unfortunate because it puts beauty as the currency of class struggle.

Frankly, I think we are drowning in pop culture and could do with a lot more "high culture" in the mix.

Share this post


Link to post
Unlike a painting or a building, dance is of the moment, lining is a stretch of time, and even video recordings are but a shadow of the real experience. The tradition and knowledge of ballet requires rigorous training, and it is essentially being passed from person to person through time. This is one of the special things about classic ballet which makes it so precious to those who love it.

The continuity of ballet is indeed miraculous.

It's also interesting that as high culture as it is, in the 20th century at least, ballet seemed dependent on dancers from working class families to keep it going. I'm thinking of Nureyev, Villella, Farrell, and all the dancers from Cuba that we depend on so heavily. They seem to remember how to possess a lucky bit of space and remember how to tell stories. Or am I romanticizing too much?

Share this post


Link to post
This is an interest problem. Pop culture and the classic arts do not mix like oil and water. They might, at best inhabit the same "media" at times but merge they can't. There will always be cross over efforts and the new guys will always find themselves reaching back into our cultural past for "things" to re package and re use in their own present / modernist manner.
I'm not one who thinks of high art as a separate entity from the rest of culture. I tend to look at all the arts as lining up in the form of spectrum, with much in the way of continuity and give and take. Think of a line graph. At one ends there's a biggish hill representing what are called the higher arts. Then there's a valley or depression. And then there is another, vastly taller hill representing the popular or mass arts. There's always been cross-pollination, even when the audiences and participants don't notice that it's occurring. A generation ago, the entire graph would have had a more flattened-out appearance: operettas, the more high-brow Broadway musicals, and frilly ballets in the style of Massine filled that center space. Today, all of that middle ground is pretty much gone.

Ballet, as several have suggested, has never been an art form for the masses. But what about the image of ballet expressed in the popular culture. Weren't there a higher level of knowledge of the rudiments and an atmospher of general admiration for what ballet dancers achieve? For much of the 19th and 20th centuries, at least?

Let's consider the Simpsons as a case study. After all it's been popular for 20 years now. There were more than a few references in the show's first decade and they were largely neutral/positive. Not so lately.
Thanks, chrisk217, for that comparison. It does suggest that something is going on in the offices where this show is created. Perhaps a sense of changing audience? After so many years on the cutting edge, maybe the creators think the Simpsons themselves have to become more conventional to avoid alientating those viewers who are still loyal?
Unfortunately, there are proponents on both sides that continue to perpetuate the view of ballet being for the elite. Pop culture likes to present ballet as still belonging to the wealthy and to the “highbrows.†Alternatively, proponents of ballet not uncommonly view pop culture as representing the “unwashed masses,†whose interests are somehow beneath them. I would go so far as saying that some even use their interest in ballet as “proof†of their “more refined†status over the less enlightened, further fueling the image of elitism.

I think it is interesting that where class differences have be institutionally eliminated (at least in theory), such as the Soviet Union and Cuba, the acceptance and appreciation of ballet has grown. The people in these countries apparently ceased to view ballet as a province of the elite and began to claim it for the “masses†themselves.

I'm sorry, dancesmith, to take your point out of context, making a complex argument appear a little too simple. But you does suggest that what we are seeing in the U.S. -- and in certain other parts of the world -- is not necessarily inevitable ... or irreversible. Tha' might, tfor those who take the long view, a comforting thought. Or not?

Share this post


Link to post

Bart,

I will agree that culture when considered as high culture and pop culture are not points but represent a continuum. But I suppose this too is hard to pin down. Some people consider Frank Gehry a brilliant architect and would place his buildings on the high culture side the same way they would Richard Serra or Andy Warhol. Others would consider there work rubbish, silly, campy self indulgent, you name it - even art for art sake and dismiss it as "pop culture" rubbish.

Ballet might be analogous to early music or baroque music which represent a body of work from the past. Choreographers can use the classical "language" and create new work and if they are good at their craft it might be indistinguishable from the quality of work of Petipa for example. But it will for all intent and purpose be esoteric and appeal to a very narrow segment of the population.

Vishneva recently did her Beauty in Motion "show" parts of which looked more like Cirque du Soleil than ballet. It wasn't meant to be ballet, though Vishneva is one of the finest ballerinas today. Was this an effort at reaching across the culture divide? I thought FLOW was just that in fact. But who did it appeal to? Ballet fans were disappointed I would think. Did it or would it appeal to the Cirque du Soleil crowd and bring them in to see the ballet. Or was this just "artistic" expression for a ballerina who feels constrained by the bounds of classicism?

Share this post


Link to post

thanks, dancesmith, for that thoughtful post. That struck me as really smart.

THe thing about popular culture bart and everybody, that you have to remember is that unlike in the 30s, right now it's 80% the product of advertisers. Now people aren't stupid, and we all understand that advertisers are trying to amuse/distract us while they get their hands on our wallets -- so nobodyreally trusts advertisers, but we're all kinda suckers for hte way the advertisers fsweet-talk us and seduce us and and make us feel they're entertaining us for free -- and htey are VERY entertaining. Problem is, it is NOT free.

They play on snob value, but they also pretend to be populist -- though they're not REALLY interested in hte well-being of people who don't have money to spend. In fact, they're trying to make us feel insecure, so we'll step in line with whatever they say is cool.... They get paid to do that, and paid well -- and htere's lots of talent working behind hte scenes to keep it all appealing.

I guess I have to give Groening more credit than this, but basically he has no critique of commercial culture except to say watch your wallet. I can't watch the show it makes me depressed. in fact, I've disabled my TV.

So IMO, it's not particularly satisfuing to study what they're up to -- it's NECESSARY to figure out their strategies, since I htink one needs to keep up good defenses against htem -- and you have to give them credit when they do something remarkable. But remember, they're trying to make a fool out of you, since a fool and his money are soon parted, and it's your money they want.

................................

edited Sat AM to say, well, I guess I went a little off the deep end here. Still, it's the advertising that strikes me as burning with a hard, gem-like flame.

Share this post


Link to post

Your content will need to be approved by a moderator

Guest
You are commenting as a guest. If you have an account, please sign in.
Reply to this topic...

×   You have pasted content with formatting.   Remove formatting

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead