97 replies to this topic

[CeC]

Speaking of stereotypes - I don't know what to say about this article ... it's the NY Times, so mainstream?

http://www.nytimes.c...amp;oref=slogin

[SanderO]

From the cited article:

Weir’s outfits often sparkle like disco balls; in his short program he pretends to be a seagull. His total package has not only led to assumptions that he is gay — something not as taboo in figure skating as in other sports — but a controversy over his not being the right type of gay. During a figure skating broadcast last year, the announcer Mark Lund, who is openly gay, said, “I don’t think he’s representative of the community I want to be a part of,” and, “I don’t need to see a prima ballerina on the ice,” before praising Lysacek’s masculinity.

....

Getting more serious, Weir continued: “If I was out to please 10-year-old girls and their 45-year-old mothers in Boise, Idaho, I could play the game and be nice and make my voice deeper. But I don’t see the point. I’m not alive for 10-year-old girls and their 45-year-old mothers in Boise, Idaho — or Colorado Springs, Colo.”

....

[carbro]

SanderO, on Mar 18 2008, 03:22 PM, said:

This may be OT, but I wonder if there are any studies of about the non ballet attending audience and why they choose NOT to attend?

I don't know how you'd identify non-ballet goers, but I guess if you stopped people on a random selection of streets, you could get such a group.  And my guess is that their answers would be pretty much the same as mine would be if asked why I don't attend boxing matches -- "Simply not interested, better things to do with my time and money."

CeC, on Mar 18 2008, 04:35 PM, said:

Speaking of stereotypes - I don't know what to say about this article ... it's the NY Times, so mainstream?

Speaking of stereotypes indeed!  The writer juxtaposes details like Weir's fur coat and Vuitton bag vs. Lysacek's truck.  

Thanks, KarenD, for reminding us that not everyone lives in a ballet bubble.  

[dirac]

Quote

Speaking of stereotypes indeed! The writer juxtaposes details like Weir's fur coat and Vuitton bag vs. Lysacek's truck.

I think the subject of the NYT article is stereotypes.  As both Weir and Lysacek are projecting a certain image and style, and consciously so, it seems fair comment.

[carbro]

SanderO, on Mar 18 2008, 05:10 PM, said:

From the cited article:

Weir's outfits often sparkle like disco balls; in his short program he pretends to be a seagull. His total package has not only led to assumptions that he is gay — something not as taboo in figure skating as in other sports — but a controversy over his not being the right type of gay. During a figure skating broadcast last year, the announcer Mark Lund, who is openly gay, said, "I don't think he's representative of the community I want to be a part of," and, "I don't need to see a prima ballerina on the ice," before praising Lysacek's masculinity.

What did Lund mean by "community"?  In the context of the article (or rather maybe this thread), there's a lot of ambiguity.  Probably all that Lund meant was the Figure Skating community, period, and Weir's prickly self-righteousness (he's clearly not relying on the power of good public relations) may be a prime reason.

[KarenD]

Quote

Thanks, KarenD, for reminding us that not everyone lives in a ballet bubble.  

And thank you, carbro, for your kind reply.... let me add there are days that I feel dangerously susceptible to being "sucked into the bubble..."  

Not that that would be a bad thing.  I just hope to be able to maintain enough of my "outsider's perspective" to help others in the general public  understand, appreciate, (and ultimately help support) this wonderful world.  That's why I feel that any press about ballet has at least some redeeming quality.

In regards to the NYT article, this piece is clearly about 2 very different styles of performance, that perhaps can fairly be compared to different stereotypes. Although I would prefer not to pigeon hole these two unique individuals into stereotypes, but simply compare and contrast what they offer in their competition/performances.  But going back to the original topic of this thread.... that is still a diferent theme from the Newsweek piece, IMHO.

[dirac]

Couldn’t resist posting this one.  More sissy stuff, this time via Russell Maliphant.

Quote

What's the biggest myth about male dancers?

That we're all sissies. Most of us are actually very powerful.

“The rest of them, yeah, you could call them sissies,” Maliphant did not add.

[Helene]

KarenD, on Mar 18 2008, 05:09 PM, said:

In regards to the NYT article, this piece is clearly about 2 very different styles of performance, that perhaps can fairly be compared to different stereotypes. Although I would prefer not to pigeon hole these two unique individuals into stereotypes, but simply compare and contrast what they offer in their competition/performances.  But going back to the original topic of this thread.... that is still a diferent theme from the Newsweek piece, IMHO.

I've seen both Weir and Lysacek skate a number of times live.   Yes, off-ice, Weir wears the occasional dress and heels and makes what are for figure skating outrageous and inflammatory comments, and , his costumes are more ornate than Lysacek's, and Lysacek wears black and skates to macho toreador music -- although Weir's costumes work well in the arena, compared to Lysacek's which are great in close-ups and bland in the arena, and Weir's aren't remotely outre in context (for that see Kevin Van der Perren's embarrassing "Lawrence of Arabia" get-up he wore at the beginning of the season).  Lysacek gets props for attempting and sometimes landing the quad -- his strategy is get as comfortable as possible with it in competition in preparation for the Vancouver Olympics, while Weir couldn't get it off the practice ice -- and for coming back fighting and nearly winning bronze in Torino with a blazing free skate after skating very ill in the Short Program and burying himself.

However, watch their movement quality:  Weir is more muscular, and he goes deep in the thigh to get speed, flow, and deep edges.  He has wonderful height and distance on his jumps -- Worlds Free Skate notwithstanding, as he was a tight, nervous wreck by his own account -- and his landing position is impeccable, in the skater equivalent of plie, with a strong back and great flow.  He also has a textbook 3Axel, both solo and in combination, while Lysacek has dodgy technique on his, and has been inconsistent with it.  (The 3Axel is a big macho jump, too.)  Lysacek is much leaner, and in my opinion. he's a bit gawky. he gains speed with quick, not deep cross-overs, and his jumps, while flashier, don't have the same power or consistency or technique as Weirs', despite the quad hype.

The last time I saw them together was during last year's non-defunct Champions on Ice tour.  Weir's skating was virile and alive.  I thought Lysacek looked anemic and was a shadow of the skater who put down a bronze-medal-winning freeskate in Moscow in 2005.  To me he looks like the kid who's willing to do the Latin dances at a bar mitzvah.  Not particularly authentic, but gets points for chutzpah and willingness