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Le Spectre de la rose...?


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#16 87Sigfried87

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 07:19 AM

He,He...BTW, seems that we always have opposite views about certain topics. I can't contain myself to declare that my role model for this part is Misha,(i find his mannerisms on this piece fascinating, (giving the obvious masculinity that usually caracterize his dancing), and the last one on my list would be your first one, Malakhov ...Talk about personal taste..! :dunno: Still, i sincerelly hope you the best...Keep us informed and again, good luck!!


I love Misha but personally I think it's not at all a role for him.He puts too much technique,too many turns and double assemblés en tournant which are superficial and do not corcern the piece very much.And then Malakhov's body is better for such an evanescent role.Misha is too earthy for this,in fact I think his Basilio is the best in the world and i'd like to see him in Diana and Acteon(Hope he performed it) but this role is nothing earthy.It's more ethereal.Everyone has his role.I would be terrible in Diana and Acteon for example.Nobody's perfect;-)

#17 canbelto

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 01:37 PM

I agree with the praise for Manuel Legris' Spectre, as well as Malakhov's.
The absolute worst is Farukh Ruzimatov. It looks like somewhere along the line he simply forgot the steps and just started improvising and posing to get through the piece. Not one of his finer moments.

#18 papeetepatrick

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 02:55 PM

Misha is too earthy for this,in fact I think his Basilio is the best in the world and i'd like to see him in Diana and Acteon(Hope he performed it) but this role is nothing earthy.It's more ethereal.Everyone has his role.I would be terrible in Diana and Acteon for example.Nobody's perfect;-)


Is Misha usually considered 'earthy?' I hadn't thought so particularly, but the term may mean something in ballet I don't know about. Nureyev is obviously earthy, but I don't think I know what 'ethereal' may mean in ballet, after all. I just know things like Merrill Ashley is not supposed to have been 'ethereal', but rather 'athletic', that someone here recently spoke of Sylvie Guillem as 'chic and earthy', that I probably imagine Alla Sizova to be ethereal, and that I think Suzanne Farrell is thought to be 'ethereal', but she also seems very earthy to me. This is somewhat :dunno: , but not entirely, could be a good separate thread. Dancers like Adam Luders look ethereal, I guess, but I don't know if I think the physique always determines that. I can't for the life of me see Anna Plisetskaya as ethereal in that tape of 'Swan Lake', but maybe she is considered to be to those who are looking more purely in a balletic sense. Most NYCB dancers haven't seemed to me to be particularly ethereal or earthy, but maybe I imagine more of the Russians to be ethereal.

#19 canbelto

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 03:24 PM

I think Misha is somehow too classical to be good in this part. The part requires a bit of perfume, a androgynous, feline quality. Misha simply doesn't have them. He looks too boyish.

#20 Mel Johnson

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 04:36 PM

The McBride-Skelton "Spectre" came from Red's weekly hour-long show. Villella and McBride did the piece correctly the first time through, then Red took the man's role, after a fashion. It was my second time seeing Villella do the part, the first being out on Long Island somewhere, maybe Jones' Beach? I also remember Nureyev's in the "Homage to Diaghilev" program with the Joffrey. It was kind of painful to watch, made worse by knowing that there was at least one other male dancer in the company who had been doing the part from his teens, and had the style down perfectly. And the style is almost everything in this one. The arms, in particular are in the High Romantic mode, and the distinct arms about the head pose has a name: that's "bras en couronne". Similarly, there aren't any third arabesques, the arms are in the softer "arabesque à deux bras" mode of the old French school, and occasionally "arabesque à la lyre". Fokine was definitely still in his "Sylphides" position when he put this together.

#21 papeetepatrick

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Posted 02 November 2007 - 06:31 PM

The part requires a bit of perfume, a androgynous, feline quality. Misha simply doesn't have them. He looks too boyish.


That's cool, good words--that 'lack of perfume' I wouldn't necessarily agree doesn't match 'boyishness' (because it might--think Bjorn Andresen in 'Death in Venice'), but I do agree it doesn't match Misha, at least most of the time. Something otherworldly in another sense is the quality seemingly being reached for here. He's otherworldly in lightness, but the aura is fairly ordinary in some ways, yes, and definitely not feline no matter how agile.

#22 87Sigfried87

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 12:47 AM

Misha is too earthy for this,in fact I think his Basilio is the best in the world and i'd like to see him in Diana and Acteon(Hope he performed it) but this role is nothing earthy.It's more ethereal.Everyone has his role.I would be terrible in Diana and Acteon for example.Nobody's perfect;-)


Is Misha usually considered 'earthy?' I hadn't thought so particularly, but the term may mean something in ballet I don't know about. I guess, but I don't know if I think the physique always determines that. I can't for the life of me see Anna Plisetskaya as ethereal in that tape of 'Swan Lake', but maybe she is considered to be to those who are looking more purely in a balletic sense. Most NYCB dancers haven't seemed to me to be particularly ethereal or earthy, but maybe I imagine more of the Russians to be ethereal.


Ethereal are dancers who show much grace when dancing and usually have thin or anyway very lank bodies usually good at the role of the prince(ss),the fairy....very lyrical roles.I'd quote Zakharova,Legris,Bolle,Malakhov,Lacarra,Semionova....

Earthy dancers are the ones who are better at roles full of jumps,turns,great technique and not graceful roles.I call them "braggers",in a good sense.These ones are the ones good at Don Chisciotte,Diana and Acteon,Le Corsaire,Bayadère....I'd quote Zelensky,Matvienko,Misha,Guillem also(but she's able to do any kind of roles perfectly)...

Usually if you are good at one role you aren't for the other.But there are also some exceptions.Malakhov makes me laugh doing le Corsaire as much as Zakharova and Bolle performing Don Chisciotte.The same for Baryshnikov doing "Spectre de la Rose" and Zelensky doing Swan Lake.You really feel they are in the wrong role;-).

#23 bart

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 07:14 AM

:)

It was my second time seeing Villella do the part, the first being out on Long Island somewhere, maybe Jones' Beach?her.

Mel, would this have been with the Eglevsky Ballet, and at the Jones Beach Amphitheater?

#24 Mel Johnson

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 07:25 AM

It very well could have been. This would have been early '60s. I know that I went to Jones' Beach for stage shows, and that I did see the Eglevsky Ballet back then (Marina was still an SAB student), but I can't recall if the two circumstances coincided.

#25 87Sigfried87

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 11:24 AM

I still have some doubts on the facial expression i am supposed to keep.During the rehearsals i found myself smiling softly at my partner and i'm wondering if I should keep a neutral/deep expression.In the videos i've seen they look kinda sad for the whole piece.That's i think not good in the pas de deux parts.Yes,he's a ghost and can't look to happy and too much "alive" but he's anyway dancing with the girl.This thing doesn't make me sad....I am wondering if a soft sweet expression on my face would be senseless....The coach is not yet worrying too much about the expression,but still on the technique.I'll ask in the right moment but before that tell me,as audience,if you'd think a not sad expression would puzzle you or not.Thanks.

#26 bart

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 12:14 PM

This has gotten me curious, so I checked the Nureyev (1979, Joffrey, with Denise Jackson) version and viewed it alongside Malakhov's.

Nureyev's technique was already ragged, but I was impressed by the way he related to the girl. He expresses a kind of urgency -- he has to reach her, somehow. Not to wake her, but to allow her unconsciousness to be touched by the dance. "Do not forget," he seems to say. "Let yourself relive what happened tonight because it's going to change everything."

This is actually rather moving, if you look at it with dancerboy87's question in mind. I've never seen an interpretation like it before. The approach is assisted by Jackson, who seems to be deeply asleep, almost catatonic, in the first part of the ballet -- more like la Sonnambula than a girl just home from her first ball. Her "awakening" (or half-awakening) in the middle of the partnering portion of the ballet, when the music crescendos and becomes faster, is especially effective.

(Malakhov, on the other hand, acts too much with his face. It fills up with an intense though generalized kind of Russian soulfulness. You either like this look or you don't. If you don't, you focus on Malakhov's port de bras, which is beautiful.)

I would think that a dancer preparing for the role might try to imagine the Spectre as something like a real characater -- not just a mood or a figment of the girl's imagination. Her dream has summoned him, but he has his own existence and his own agenda. Nureyev conveys this, I believe.

Arlene Croce, reviewing Nureyev with the Joffrey in the same year, also sees the Spectre as a character with his own motivation. She is more critical of Nureyev's acting, however, than I have been.

Born into an age of resurgent male dancing, Nureyev the cavalier demands Nijinksy roles as his rightful legacy, but Nureyev is as out of place in Nijinsky's repertory as Nijinsky would have been in his. Nureyev's career may be understood in part as an attempt to gain ad hold center stage without a repertory that places him there. [ ... ] In Le Spectre de la Rose, he dances a part that Nijinsky himself came to loathe as "too pretty." { ... } The evening I saw him, Nureyev did his most vigorous and sustained dancing in this. His energy was higher than it had been for some time; he connected his phrases; he didn't sag in a landing or reprop himself after a finish. [ ... } yet his port de bras was sketchy, and he danced almost totally without reference to the girl. The lack of arms ... is less crippling to the role than the notion that the Spectre, supplicant, imploring, seductive in every move, could be dancing by and for himself. Nureyev's insularity reached its peak when, while Dense Jackson waltzed around the stage, he held a high releve in fifth with his gaze fixed on her empty chair.

[The boldface is mine.]

#27 Mel Johnson

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 12:39 PM

Perhaps he was musing on the American Civil War tearjerker, "The Vacant Chair"?

#28 Mme. Hermine

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 01:02 PM

:)

#29 Mel Johnson

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Posted 03 November 2007 - 01:07 PM

I still have some doubts on the facial expression i am supposed to keep.During the rehearsals i found myself smiling softly at my partner and i'm wondering if I should keep a neutral/deep expression.In the videos i've seen they look kinda sad for the whole piece.That's i think not good in the pas de deux parts.Yes,he's a ghost and can't look to happy and too much "alive" but he's anyway dancing with the girl.This thing doesn't make me sad....I am wondering if a soft sweet expression on my face would be senseless....The coach is not yet worrying too much about the expression,but still on the technique.I'll ask in the right moment but before that tell me,as audience,if you'd think a not sad expression would puzzle you or not.Thanks.


Izzy Petipa sez: "Try rehearsing it stoned. If Twyla becomes more accessible when you're drunk, think what pot could do for Fokine! (That is, if you don't start giggling.)"

#30 cubanmiamiboy

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Posted 04 November 2007 - 04:04 PM

Izzy Petipa sez: "Try rehearsing it stoned. If Twyla becomes more accessible when you're drunk, think what pot could do for Fokine! (That is, if you don't start giggling.)"

:blink:


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