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snobbery


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Ballet and Opera are really very different and it's hard to compare them even though you find the same librettos in each genre.

I don't think Boccelli would have become associated with opera were it not for his cross over marketing appeal. There's a whole lot of these pop opera singers, most seem to be coming from the UK.

I was thinking about who attends ballet (dance) and opera. For one thing dance is a young person's "game" while opera seems to favor more mature singers. Dancers loose their edge as they age and singers can go on and on. So this might and probably does have an influence on who attends the two.

If you bring in pop music to the discussion you can see it attracts young audiences and the acts are young

Returning to audience at opera and ballet, you can see older people (I'm one) who attends both, but clearly the average age seems to be younger for dance. And dance is offering all sorts of contemporary productions as well as the classics. Opera seems to be less responsive to new works. And then there's the cost. An opera production seems to be much more expensive to mount than a ballet. If you look at the Met Opera and the ABT's productions you can see the difference, same locale, same theater etc. Big production costs means more expensive tickets and these are purchased by the well heeled to can afford it and sponsor it. There's lots more money in the opera genre all around.

But there is also the phenomena that ballet/dance is a much more precious experience. it can't be bottled into a CD and even watching a DVD is something which requires your attention and you can't have it on in the car, or in the background while you cook, and even then, the essence of ballet is movement and the essence of opera is sound. And then there is the ensemble nature of dance to consider. Opera is almost always defined by the memorable arias, even though they may have a few singers in them. But in dance some of the most glorious passages are involving scores of dancers in a rich tapestry. While there are the pdds and so forth it seems that on the whole ballet/dance genre is more interactive (even in a pdd!) as opposed to singer A belting out an aria in an opera with the cast standing there like statues.

I love both, but I find ballet and dance a higher expression of "art" and always involves some level of abstraction... perhaps because I am more a visual person. I'm more confused than a snob.

Has there ever been any dancers who crossed over to singing?

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Has there ever been any dancers who crossed over to singing?
Good question! Were you referring to opera only? Outside of that, I suppose there's a generation of hoofers who were able to sustain recording careers as singers. But ballet dancers? I'd love to hear from the experts about that.

There are those dancer casts of West Side Story Suite. I'd pay extra money to hear Damian Woetzel sing "Cool."

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Oh, of course! WSSS has given NYCB audiences a glimpse at several dancers' hidden talents!

At a book event about two years ago, Jenifer Ringer described how Robbins auditioned the dancers for the singing roles. Her family took the news dubiously that she, as Anita, would be singing "America," because growing up, she was considered the non-singer Ringer. Jen, Damian and Nikolaj all give Broadway-quality star turns.

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During their recent engagement at the Joyce Theater, the James Sewell Ballet presented a piece called "Opera Moves", pieces set to various arias, duets, etc. The ballerina Emily Tyra both sang and danced Kurt Weill's "Lonely House" from the opera Street Scene. An impressive tour de force.

Macaulay, in his NYTimes review, referred to her "lip synching". In the program it clearly stated that it was both sung live and danced by Ms. Tyra. A small and unobtrusive mike was evident. Six days later the Times printed a correction.

Her program bio states that Ms. Tyra has been studying voice for the past six years.

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papeetepatrick writes:

I recall something in the late 70s in the New Yorker, already doing a big bore of its Anglophilia, in an interesting article called 'Aristocracies', which was all about the 'privilege' that came of the 'sense of duty' of the English upper classes. This was febrile enough.......

It’s still happening over at The New York Review of Books, although it’s not new and I can understand some of the underlying reasons for it. There was one piece recently about Scott of the Antarctic that was a real eye-roller.

bart writes:

The average ballet audience member is simply not able or willing to put the time and effort into doing the kind of preparatory work that will help them get the most out of performances that are more than entertainment. Most audience members, in my long experience, have never read the program notes; few attend the pre-performance lectures.

Many, however, seem actually to enjoy being educated if it is done in an easily accessible, noncondescending manner. If flashing titles of each dance helps the average audience member to "place" the ballet before he/she sees it, and to get some frame of reference for it, however minimal, I'm all for that. Integrating filmed rehearsal footage, etc., can have its place too, if it doesn't destroy mood and concentration.

I agree, and I see no reason not to try. It wouldn’t be appropriate for all ballets and all performances, but I think it’s worth the attempt. (Especially these days when people are working longer and harder and it’s all you can do to get to the performance on time during the week, never mind the pre-performance lecture.)

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papeetepatrick writes:
I recall something in the late 70s in the New Yorker, already doing a big bore of its Anglophilia, in an interesting article called 'Aristocracies', which was all about the 'privilege' that came of the 'sense of duty' of the English upper classes. This was febrile enough.......

It’s still happening over at The New York Review of Books, although it’s not new and I can understand some of the underlying reasons for it. There was one piece recently about Scott of the Antarctic that was a real eye-roller.

I'm not sure I understand. By "the 'privilege' that came of the 'sense of duty'" do you mean a sense of duty supposedly felt by the privileged? In other words, do you mean noblesse oblige?

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Has there ever been any dancers who crossed over to singing?

Well, there was Patricia Brooks, late City Opera, and before that...Martha Graham. I recall a Barber of Seville with her, Spiro Malas, Sherrill Milnes, and a tenor I cannot now recall doing the "Mi par d'esser con la testa

in un'orrida fucina" finale to Act I by bouncing off walls and furniture. It was the most gymnastic display of people in 18th-century clothing I think I've ever seen.

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I'm not sure I understand. By "the 'privilege' that came of the 'sense of duty'" do you mean a sense of duty supposedly felt by the privileged?

That is what the article was referring to, yes. These 'privileged' were not 'supposedly' anything, by the way. They were everything they said they were, in the most absolute of certainties. Early 'royal-watcher' material...

In other words, do you mean noblesse oblige?

Not precisely, because it doesn't cover enough of what was implied, and also because I didn't personally mean anything by it, I was merely reporting. There could be noblesse oblige, but that was not the emphasis in any case.

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Well, there was Patricia Brooks, late City Opera, and before that...Martha Graham.
Thanks, Mel. I didn't know that. Brooks was a real star for us regulars at the City Opera. I knew she'd done other types of singing, and straight acting as well, but never knew about the modern dance.
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Well, there was Patricia Brooks, late City Opera, and before that...Martha Graham.
Thanks, Mel. I didn't know that. Brooks was a real star for us regulars at the City Opera. I knew she'd done other types of singing, and straight acting as well, but never knew about the modern dance.

I didn't know that either, and did see her do Melisande twice, which she sang beautifully. But she was quite a beautiful physical presence, so it's not entirely a surprise in a sense.

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bart writes:
Many, however, seem actually to enjoy being educated if it is done in an easily accessible, noncondescending manner. If flashing titles of each dance helps the average audience member to "place" the ballet before he/she sees it, and to get some frame of reference for it, however minimal, I'm all for that. Integrating filmed rehearsal footage, etc., can have its place too, if it doesn't destroy mood and concentration.

I agree, and I see no reason not to try. It wouldn’t be appropriate for all ballets and all performances, but I think it’s worth the attempt. (Especially these days when people are working longer and harder and it’s all you can do to get to the performance on time during the week, never mind the pre-performance lecture.)

I dunno. If an artistic director is willing to speak about what I'm about to see and show me a snippet of it, I'll want to listen and watch and learn. But if he or she thinks that merely flashing me the title of what I've paid to see is educating me, I'm going to feel they're being incredibly condescending. Perhaps what's going on here has something to do with the digital revolution, with people being less likely to read something on paper, or read something that takes a couple of minutes of concentration, as the notes in an orchestral or chamber music program might still do. If a ballet company really needs to appeal to an audience that won't invest a few minutes of actual effort but needs to be passively entertained like kids watching Sesame Street ("Suzanne Farrell takes one large leap") . . . I mean, who wants that audience? Can that audience really be educated?

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If an artistic director is willing to speak about what I'm about to see and show me a snippet of it, I'll want to listen and watch and learn. But if he or she thinks that merely flashing me the title of what I've paid to see is educating me, I'm going to feel they're being incredibly condescending.

If we are referring to the projections of titles and rehearsal clips in the Morphoses programs, I thought they were intended as much to fill the often empty black hole pauses that gape between one little middle ballet and the next. The titles were more of a convenience than an education, and the rehearsal clips were too short (and lacking narrative) to give real insight into what went into making and learning a ballet.

It was an inventive diversion to fill the time when the curtain is down, the orchestra silent and the houselights too dim to allow us to read.

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The issue of "snobbery" can perhaps be placed at the feet of the audiences and their level of insider knowledge. I sense that a large proportion of ballet audiences are in or of the dance and music world. And I think this is less so in opera because the nature of the work is more literal.

Most people can "appreciate" musical comedy; not esoteric knowledge required. Opera resembles comedy. In fact, it is the"Broadway" of times gone by in a sense.

Ballet and dance are much more abstract and always require a leap of "faith" with story ballet. The language of the "steps" seems arbitrary and a mixture of beauty and athletics. But athletics where there is no game, no winner, no scores, nor records to break. The genre is definitely one what almost requires some experience to get something profound from the experience. And how does ballet reach out to its audience and lift them up to understanding? I don't see much effort in that. I don't even know if ballet sees this as part of its mission, as much as simply preserving their esoteric art. Could this be why it is painted with the snob brush?

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If an artistic director is willing to speak about what I'm about to see and show me a snippet of it, I'll want to listen and watch and learn. But if he or she thinks that merely flashing me the title of what I've paid to see is educating me, I'm going to feel they're being incredibly condescending.

If we are referring to the projections of titles and rehearsal clips in the Morphoses programs, I thought they were intended as much to fill the often empty black hole pauses that gape between one little middle ballet and the next. The titles were more of a convenience than an education, and the rehearsal clips were too short (and lacking narrative) to give real insight into what went into making and learning a ballet.

It was an inventive diversion to fill the time when the curtain is down, the orchestra silent and the houselights too dim to allow us to read.

Thanks for that explanation, carbro. That puts the title in a different perspective than Acocella's.

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You want snobbery? Try American football, baseball, and boxing fans. If you don't know all the stats back to 1911 on everybody, you ain't worth talkin' to.

Exactly, and the fact is that snobbery is everywhere, including quite low places. The 'pleasure of snobbery' is not known only to inner-city journalists who want to hang out with ballerinas and ballerinos (with or without tattoos). But The New Yorker would naturally want to pick and choose among pet snobberies to condemn + envy, being one itself and competing for the best seats at the Snobbery Awards. They get sillier by the year, and seem to imagine that it goes unnoticed. Their ads alone have always been tell-tale, even though it's not down to a lone single-malt whiskey ad and summer houses in Tuscany quite yet (they're not quite ready for the 'Paris Review' look).

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And how does ballet reach out to its audience and lift them up to understanding? I don't see much effort in that. I don't even know if ballet sees this as part of its mission, as much as simply preserving their esoteric art. Could this be why it is painted with the snob brush?
You don't? What is NYCB's Fourth Ring Society intended as but a lure to get people into a ballet habit? At this point, if you buy a membership and only one ticket over the course of a year, you break even on the membership. Other companies would to well to emulate this model.

Also, every company I know has instituted talks, seminars, etc., both within their own walls and as under the aegis of other programs such as Times Talks or Works and Process. These simply didn't exist 25 years ago, and the frequency and depth they offer varies greatly, but they're all an attempt to let the audience gain knowledge, insight and appreciation.

TV commercials are a fairly recent phenomenon.

And let's not overlook programming, which often hypes the hip, new productions over the tried and true.

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Many major arts organizations have programs to try to entice a younger audience, often offering discounted subscriptions and/or tickets to members, as well as social events before specific performances. The point isn't just to hear lectures, but to socialize with other people in the general age group, to meet people with similar interests. When this trend started in NYC, I had just aged out of the 35-year-old limit, and by the time they started in Seattle, I had just aged out of the 40-year-old limit. When I was 45, I went to Santa Fe for the opera, only to find on my last day there that the limit for SFO's group was 45 :dunno:

There is a lot of outreach in Seattle, from schools to young adults, in addition to lectures before performances and Q&A's after them. These club-like programs, though, are aimed at breaking down the entrance barrier, along with more younger person-income-friendly ticket prices. Seattle Symphony has Wolfgang, Seattle Opera has Bravo Club, and PNB has Backstage Pass.

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But athletics where there is no game, no winner, no scores, nor records to break.

I think this is a very apt observation.

Imagine going to a NBA basketball game without knowing any of the rules. First off, you might not "get it". Second, you might think there was an elitist "in-crowd" there too. You'd see them shouting "DE-Fence, DE-Fence"....what the heck is that all about? What's a defence? Then at "intermission" you overhear the couple next to you excitedly talking about players (by name!) executing a perfect "pick and roll", or saying so-and-so is really no good since his "turnover ratio" is too high.

Maybe if ballet audiences took the time to "learn the game" as many sports fans do, it would not seem so elitist to them. (BTW, cost ain't the whole story either.......NBA seat prices are not much less expensive than ballet tickets -- except the nosebleed seats in both cases).

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You want snobbery? Try American football, baseball, and boxing fans. If you don't know all the stats back to 1911 on everybody, you ain't worth talkin' to.

Case in point: Myself and two other (rather well-dressed, younger than I) females squashed into a Green-Line T on the way into Boston (and unfortunately Fenway) to see Boston Ballet's Gala Oct.12.

The train was full of Red Sox fans, some of whom had been partying since long before they stepped onto the train. One rather confident (and boistrously loud) young man tried to pick-up the young woman sitting across from me with a rather one-sided conversation. He made sure to mention his beloved baseball team, the AL playoffs etc.etc.etc.. when she had the temerity to ask "Who are they playing?" (I didn't know either.) Well, you should have heard the bellow, echoed all down the train by the astonished Sox fans, that she didn't know or could be so uninformed, uninvolved, or just plain too dull to know. (As I said, I didn't know either--and from her rolled eyes, neither did the third girl.) For the next 10 stops, that was the entire conversation: How there could be anyone in the Boston area who did not know all, or support all, concerning the Red Sox.

Ok, I'll admit, I am glad when the Red Sox beat the Yankees (who've won too many, and are too smug about it), but I don't follow them, unless they mention on the news they won the World Series.

Which I guess they did--again?

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Most people can "appreciate" musical comedy; not esoteric knowledge required. Opera resembles comedy. In fact, it is the"Broadway" of times gone by in a sense.

I don't know -- try saying that you like Cats or Les Miz or Phatom and you'll get quite an earful about what real musicals are :dunno:

I understand why people are intimidated by Merce Cunningham or Pina Bausch or Jerome Robbins' pieces like Watermill, Moves, and The Dybbuk, or anything touted to be intellectual, but what I don't understand is the barrier towards most classical and neo-classical ballet: abstract or not, you go to the ballet, and you see gorgeous naked people. OK, maybe not completely naked, but how much more visceral and basic do you need than beautiful young bodies moving?

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[ Then at "intermission"you overhear the couple next to you excitedly talking about players (by name!) executing a perfect "pick and roll", or saying so-and-so is really no good since his "turnover ratio" is too high.

:dunno:

Totally OT, but your use of the term "intermission" for halftime above made me think of something..

My mother has been attending ballet for years and years but is also a pretty avid sports fan and has recently been going to more and more sporting events. In the last few years she has taken to calling intermission "Half Time", which inevitably makes me roll my eyes and groan.

Really it is kinda cute though:)

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BTW, cost ain't the whole story either.......NBA seat prices are not much less expensive than ballet tickets -- except the nosebleed seats in both cases).

Sports are accessible in a way ballet is not. Games are regularly broadcast on both network and basic cable, and for a little more money your cable or satellite provider will provide access to almost any game you like. The television commentators, if they are good ones, provide analysis and explanation of rules, identify players and their histories, and in general give even the most naive viewer something to go on.

Even when ballet is shown on television, viewers get very little guidance. I’m not suggesting play by play commentary, you understand, :dunno: but a little something would be helpful to new viewers, I’m sure.

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