45 replies to this topic

[carbro]

cygneblanc, on May 12 2007, 01:00 PM, said:

. . .  as a former administrator of parisian cemeteries . . .

What a fascinating, varied group of people we find on BT!

[Mel Johnson]

cygneblanc, on May 12 2007, 01:00 PM, said:

Well, congrats to Pierre Lacotte and others, because as a former administrator of parisian cemeteries I know very well how it's difficult to get to have the location of  someone's grave on the maps. Who did handle the request ?

I don't know specifically, but I know that the Registrar of Vital Statistics and the Academie Française were active in the matter.  As late as 1990, the Registrar for Marseilles had no idea that any person named "Marie Taglioni" had EVER lived or died there!  The office was, however, aware of a certain "Comtesse Gilbert de Voisins", but had no idea of what she did other than be a countess!  You just have to admire bureaucracy, don't you?  

[nysusan]

Wow, I wish this discussion had been held a month ago! I just got back from a trip to France and my husband and I spent a morning at Pere Lachaise. I had no idea that Marie Taglioni was buried there, if I had I certainly would have sought out her grave and paid my respects.

Pere Lachaise is a very beautiful cemetery, but it can be difficult to locate specific graves, even with a map. It's well worth a visit but I recommend that you go early in the morning to avoid the midday sun.  It also gets more and more crowded as it gets later in the day. And wear comfortable shoes - that's really important!!

[cygneblanc]

Mel Johnson, on May 12 2007, 06:56 PM, said:

You just have to admire bureaucracy, don't you?  

Well I don't know the City of Marseilles' administration but I can tell you the city of Paris' is terribly bureaucratic  

[Mel Johnson]

Few people realize what a wealth of information exists in cemeteries, even if you don't stop in at the office to see if they have any supportive documentation on the deceased.  As a historian, I spend a lot of time researching cemeteries.  One of my favorite epitaphs is "Lydia Smith, (years) who died in the explosion of a lamp filled with Danforth's non-Explosive Burning Fluid"

[cygneblanc]

Well, for the ones who would be tempted to get infos from French cemeteries, I have to warn you that French legislation related to secret of private life doesn't allow those who aren't "tenant in common" of the plot to get some infos. The only thing they can do is to go in the cemetery, try to find the grave and see what's written on.

I was very strict on that policy, families can (and sometines do!) intend lawsuits against administration. Nevertheless, you can't control everything from your office, and often if you go to the offices of the cemeteries (there are 19 in Paris) and ask for a particular grave, you may be told the answer. I don't know how strict is their policy now. I was amazed to see how it's easy to get infos from American cemeteries !

[Mel Johnson]

Yes, and Canadian ones, too.  It's no wonder, with privacy standards like those to work with, it's harder to get info from French cemetery administrations, and also provides some insight into why even the cemeteries are unaware of certain critical information about their remains and monuments.

[chiapuris]

cygneblanc, on May 13 2007, 12:47 PM, said:

Well, for the ones who would be tempted to get infos from french cemeteries, I have to warn you that french legislation related to secret of private life doesn't allow those who aren't "tenant in common" of the plot to get some infos. The only thing they can do is to go in the cemetery, try to find the grave and see what's written on.

I appreciate your comments, cygneblanc.

We had elaborate handwritten notes, several years ago, from someone who had visited the gravesite of
Olga Preobrajenskaya at Montmartre cemetary. After failing to find it during our visit, we went to the office
and asked. The person told us she could give us the location only if we provided the exact year of death,
because that's how names are listed.

We knew approximately but not exactly.
We never found the gravesite, although saw many others, including Nijinsky's, during our search.

[cygneblanc]

Well, if we exclude legal implications, another problem is that not every cemetery has informatic listings, and yes, if you don't have a precise date, it's almost impossible to find something on the paper listings, because there are just too many names...

[Mel Johnson]

Time for a computer and Windows Excel!  But really, I have great sympathy for cemetery administrators who have to work under such constraint!

[cygneblanc]

Excel doesn't work for those things since there are about 7 000 000 000 bodies in parisan cemeteries There is a special sofware developped especially. Some names  are already computarized and the full thing should be finished in 10 years !

[Mel Johnson]

I gather that the "legal implications" have expired for those burials which took place while the town was still called Lutetia?  

[cygneblanc]

Yes, I think so  

[Estelle]

cygneblanc, on May 13 2007, 04:52 PM, said:

Excel doesn't work for those things since there are about 7 000 000 000 bodies in parisan cemeteries There is a special sofware developped especially. Some names  are already computarized and the full thing should be finished in 10 years !

Err, could you explain why there are so many bodies ? 7 *billion* sounds so enormous, compared to the world population...  

[cygneblanc]

Oops sorry, there are only 7 000 000 millions (that's already a lot)  and 7 not billions. To give you an idea, there are 100 000 plots in the Père Lachaise alone, and they contain about 700 000 bodies.

Well, there are a lot explanations. I won't enter into details very much because the thread will become gruesome, but you can do a lot of things with a single plot. Cremation until a few years ago wasn't usual and it was thought in the 19th and 20th that it was important  to have a big plot with a deep vault and an impressive monument.