Underestimated Dancers

[sandik]

Didn't Renvall have a major role in ABT's video of Dark elegies?

I THINK that was him in the really difficult role.... what's difficult is uinting the technique and the depth of feeling.

Yes, Paul, that's Renvall. I'm not sure that video is commercially available. It was televised, though, so some may have a home copy. I agree, it does show his talents very well.

I think it's available, or it once was. It's a program about Tudor, with some interview footage and a performance of Lilac Garden as well.

I love Dark Elegies, and Renvall did a wonderful job with the part.

[Ginny Kanter]

Thanks for getting us back on topic, Bart! I've been trying to think of some underappreciated dancers of today and I can't (I may tomorrow ) But from the not too far past, I remember Johan Renvall of ABT. He had an unfashionable body -- long torso, short legs -- and was not tall enough to do the star parts, but he had a beautiful classical technique. I remember him taking on Julio Bocca in "Etudes" and (to my eyes) winning

He was also wonderful in Sleeping Beauty--very much the prince.

[Mel Johnson]

I recall Johan Renvall as an extremely "simpatico" dancer. He bonded well with audiences. I recall in Baryshnikov's staging of Don Quixote he had a bit part and short solos in the Act I crowd scenes. I always waited for those. Nobody else did them quite the same.

[vipa]

A great topic. I don't know if my thinking fits in. I was thinking of Christine Sarry who was maybe not underestimated as much as under-used. I don't know if that is the same thing or connected.

BTW I remember Renvall as guest with the Eglevesky ballet. He was wonderful

[Alexandra]

Ah, Christine Sarry. I didn't see her often, but I remember her well (mostly with the early Feld Ballet). She was certainly well-used and appreciated there. Perhaps not so much at ABT? (Anyone know what she's doing now?)

[bart]

[ ... ] who was maybe not underestimated as much as under-used. I don't know if that is the same thing or connected.

Interesting question, vipa. There certainly seems to be a very close connection. A lot of dancers are "underestimated" by their company directors. THAT must be a very big list -- with many of Balanchine's dancers near the top of it.

Please keep thinking of these dancers -- "underestimated" should not mean "forgotten".

[vipa]

Ah, Christine Sarry. I didn't see her often, but I remember her well (mostly with the early Feld Ballet). She was certainly well-used and appreciated there. Perhaps not so much at ABT? (Anyone know what she's doing now?)

I was thinking of her at ABT, you are right she certainly was used by Feld. Last I heard she was teaching for the Feld school which has a connection with the NYC public school system.

[Alexandra]

Thanks for that, vipa.

Any other underapprecaited dancers? (And by "underappreciated," I don't mean not made principals or soloists, because sometimes a dancer can spend his or her whole career as a corps member or soloist, to the indignation of his/her fans, but is given good roles to dance. That's one definition, anyway!).

[jrhewit]

Off topic interjection, but. . . this is back-engineering the libretto. To the 19th century eyes that wrote the libretto, Hilarion was a villain, and an unsympathetic character who was unsuited for Giselle. To have the story still make sense, at minimum Hilarion needs to be cast so he's unsuited to Giselle. It could be physical (too tall, too short, too something) or emotional (too rough) but he has to be wrong for her and there has to be some sort of bond in casting between Giselle and Albrecht. Otherwise you get the understandable "Poor Hilarion" crowd - but the story makes no sense. It sucks to be Hilarion, but it isn't his story.

Thank you for that information. I had not realised that Hilarion was an unwelcome suitor for Giselle. I had wondered why there were no early scenes showing Hilarion and Giselle enjoying each other's company; no intimacy; he just skulking around, leaving flowers, spying, like some mediaeval stalker. That all makes sense now. But I still feel he should have confronted/attacked Albrecht.

[Helene]

Off topic interjection, but. . . this is back-engineering the libretto. To the 19th century eyes that wrote the libretto, Hilarion was a villain, and an unsympathetic character who was unsuited for Giselle. To have the story still make sense, at minimum Hilarion needs to be cast so he's unsuited to Giselle. It could be physical (too tall, too short, too something) or emotional (too rough) but he has to be wrong for her and there has to be some sort of bond in casting between Giselle and Albrecht. Otherwise you get the understandable "Poor Hilarion" crowd - but the story makes no sense. It sucks to be Hilarion, but it isn't his story.

Hilarion would have to be portrayed as quite the boor for Albrecht to be considered the hero by comparison. Look at what they did to Baryshnikov's character on Sex and the City for the audience to root for Carrie to end up with Big. Ugh, what a choice.

[carbro]

This was the problem with John Gardner's Hilarion. John was one of ABT's most endearing dancers of his generation, and a certain sweetness and decency was never too far beneath the rough surface.

John was another underestimated dancer, IMO.

Edited August 13, 2007 by carbro
To add the second part.

[bart]

Another underestimated dancer (in Alexandra's sense) is Sascha Radetsky -- who, coincidentally, includes Hilarion among his roles.

Radetsky has certainly been overshadowed by other male dancers at ABT despite receiving much praiise from critics and many memers of the audience.

Come to think of it, his character in the movie Center Stage is rather underestimated by the female lead. She rejects him for the much flashier Ethan Stiefel -- one of whose roles at ABT is Albrecht.

[Helene]

Come to think of it, his character in the movie Center Stage is rather underestimated by the female lead. She rejects him for the much flashier Ethan Stiefel -- one of whose roles at ABT is Albrecht.

He gets her in the end, though, after she realizes that Albrecht, I mean Ethan Stiefel's character, is a cad. She does choose to join Cooper's company instead of the Big Company, where she can continue to dance Susan Stroman's choreography.

Hugely underestimated in the movie is Ilia Kulik's very natural performance. Highly regarded is Julie Kent's deft comedienne turn.

[Klavier]

Another underestimated dancer (in Alexandra's sense) is Sascha Radetsky -- who, coincidentally, includes Hilarion among his roles.

Radetsky has certainly been overshadowed by other male dancers at ABT despite receiving much praiise from critics and many memers of the audience.

Come to think of it, his character in the movie Center Stage is rather underestimated by the female lead. She rejects him for the much flashier Ethan Stiefel -- one of whose roles at ABT is Albrecht.

I'd hate to have to pull out the DVD of that thing again, but doesn't the female lead come back to Sascha at the end, telling the Stiefel character that he's a pretty good choreographer, but as a boyfriend "you kind of suck"? (Remember, I'm quoting; I have no way to verify.)

edit: oops - never mind - Helene got there already, albeit with less salty language.

[Helene]

I'd hate to have to pull out the DVD of that thing again, but doesn't the female lead come back to Sascha at the end, telling the Stiefel character that he's a pretty good choreographer, but as a boyfriend "you kind of suck"? (Remember, I'm quoting; I have no way to verify.)

edit: oops - never mind - Helene got there already, albeit with less salty language.

My post may have been less salty, but I'm pretty certain you got that quote dead on

[bart]

He gets her in the end, though, after she realizes that Albrecht, I mean Ethan Stiefel's character, is a cad.

I confess I zoned out while watching this movie and quite possibly was in some alternate interior world by the end.

[Mel Johnson]

Remember, though, that although the Anacreontic Age of ballet is over in Giselle, some ancient rules from the Classical Age in Literature still apply somewhat. For example, the Aristotelean requirement that a protagonist in a tragedy be somehow Noble. However incognito Loys/Albrecht may be, he's still a noble. (Giselle is also noble in her own way) Hilarion is distinctly Not Noble. Even though he is doing the right thing by unmasking Albrecht's deception, he's just not to the manor born. Viewed from Albrecht's point of view, the ballet is a tragedy. Considering that Giselle floats off to heaven, even though she's not buried in consecrated ground, it's a comedy; the protagonist triumphs.

[Helene]

. There have been many great Effys in Denmark; the role was, in the good periods, often given to the company's beauty. Some notable Effys were Vibeka Segerskog, Arlette Weinrich and the Effy on the now commercially available DVD, Anne Kristin Hauge. (I think the point of that casting was to make it clear that there's nothing wrong with Effy, that James isn't experiencing wedding night jitters, and that he's not throwing her over for a better, prettier girl.

The Sylph is a dream, an Ideal. The ballet is the poster child for Romanticism: a man leaves his comfortable life to follow a dream. When he touches his dream, it dies.

When I saw La Sylphide in Denmark a few years ago in Hubbe's staging, I thought Tina Højlund was a fantastic Effy. She's not a "stop the ambulance" beauty, but she had spirit and was a very well-defined and fleshed-out character. (And her dancing was to die for.) Unfortunately, the Sylph, Gutrun Bojesen, didn't strike me as an Ideal, although the production itself was very clearly based on this notion. She seemed to me a more upscale version of Effy: more polished and with better pearls.

[4mrdncr]

Does anyone remember the discussion of Hilarion's vs. Albrecht's relationship to Giselle in the film "Dancers"? The author(s) of the screenplay followed the tradition of Albrecht (aristo) vs. Hilarion (uncouth peasant). And if I remember correctly, Baryshnikov was a master at playing the cold, haughty aristocrat, as Victor Barbee was playing a more sympathetic Hilarion. There is also a good discussion of Myrta's motivation. No one seems to have considered what Giselle thinks of it all.

These sections are interesting, and the performance footage beautifully shot, but I usually FF through most of the rest of the film. (Oh if only it were on dvd, to make that easier!)

To return to original topic:

Are we discussing dancers who excel in technique but are underappreciated because of physique or lack of roles? Or because they dance roles that are underappreciated for their effect on the primary roles?

[jrhewit]

Leigh is right. Hilarion was "that vile knave" (Gautier). He's gotten more and more sympathetic, especially in the West. The last time I saw the Kirov dance "Giselle," Hilarion was still an older gamekeeper. Giselle and Hilarion were not engaged, nor in love. Hilarion was sweet on Giselle and her mother encouraged his suit, but Giselle mimed, in the original, that she did not love him "because you are not beautiful."

Those interested in this might want to read Marian Smith's "Ballet and Opera in the Age of Giselle" (and Ivor Guest's books on Romantic Ballet). Hilarion did have a bigger role -- 13 scenes, I write from memory -- but so much mime has been cut over the years that his role has been cut down. And he is, and was, a supporting player (as are Effy and Gurn in "La Sylphide") They are extremely important, but they're not the stars and that's why they don't get the last curtain call at the end of the ballet.

I'd missed this thread when it was first posted, or I would have dashed in and said that I've never read Bournonville's version of "La Sylphide" called "frivolous." Often it's called the only ballet of Bournonville's that's NOT frivolous (and I'd disagree with that, too, of course), but "La Sylphide" is a quite serious work. There have been many great Effys in Denmark; the role was, in the good periods, often given to the company's beauty. Some notable Effys were Vibeka Segerskog, Arlette Weinrich and the Effy on the now commercially available DVD, Anne Kristin Hauge. (I think the point of that casting was to make it clear that there's nothing wrong with Effy, that James isn't experiencing wedding night jitters, and that he's not throwing her over for a better, prettier girl.

I'd also disagree with jrhewit's comment that:

It's ["La Sylphide"] NOT about a man unable to choose between two women (as the Royal Danish Ballet would have us believe in their frivolous version). It is about the universal fallacy that 'the grass is greener on the other side of the fence'. James wants Effie but he cannot commit to her because of what he would be giving up if he did (symbolised by the Sylphide).

I agree that the ballet is not about a man unable to choose between two women (and that is NOT in the RDB's version.) But it's more than "grass is greener," although some Jameses have used that as an acting motivation. The Sylph is a dream, an Ideal. The ballet is the poster child for Romanticism: a man leaves his comfortable life to follow a dream. When he touches his dream, it dies.

I'd echo what Leigh said about being careful not to retrofit ballets. Often we see a production, especially one that's half-baked, and it doesn't make sense to us, and we use logic to figure out what's going on, using present-day glasses. And often what is logical doesn't help! One of the many things I learned from the Danes is to start with what is there and try to figure out why, how it DOES (or did) make sense, and work from there.

This is an interesting topic, though, and I'm glad jrhewit raised it (a belated welcome!). There certainly are a lot of dancers in "small roles" who deserve our attention, and in the best of companies in the best of times, all of these "small parts" are done with such care that they make the ballet complete, and turn it from being a star turn into a ballet.

Oh Dear - I did not intend to accuse Bournonville of frivolity. I intended simply to draw attention to the difference between the Bournonville/Danish choreography and that of Lacotte/POB. In a direct comparison between these two, The POB version is, in my opinion, correctly serious and 'formal' while the Danish version is rather more frivolous and 'informal'. I base this opinion on three aspects. In judging these I claim no particular 'choreographical' expertise, but I do claim the expertise of being Scottish! First, the dress. In both versions the dress is, of course, tartan. However, in the Danish version the dancers are kitted out messily in a variety of different tartans whereas in the Lacotte version there are only two tartans, red and blue. In Scotland, people dress in individually different tartans for informal activities, whereas the groupwise wearing of uniform tartans indicates joint, clannish, formal occasions. For example, when a girl gets married in Scotland she will probably ask all of the male guests to wear the same tartan - she knows that the photographs of her, in white, flanked by a cohort of uniformly dressed men will look better than if the men's kilts are all different, as if just thrown on. Also, for formal dancing in a group, such as highland or country dancing seen at events such as the Edinburgh Festival Tattoo, the dancers will be in uniform tartan - it just looks a lot better. The place to see the wearing of individual tartans is on the members of the Tartan Army as they lurch hopefully after the Scottish football team. Second, Madge. Madge MUST be a deeply serious character - the entire tragedy of the story stems from her. In the POB version, Madge has immense gravitas and conveys her powerful malice with great conviction - perhaps this is achieved by using a man to portray her. The Danish version, on the other hand, has Madge as a thin shrewish harridan, more intent on wheedling another glass of whisky out of the guests than in subjecting them to supernatural oppression. We can see and hear her any Friday or Saturday night in the centre of Glasgow trying to get a taxi to take her home after another night on 'the bevvie'. Thirdly, Gurn. In the POB version Gurn is portayed as a depressed loser, a nice-enough guy but someone who knows he has no real chance of getting Effie. You feel that when he does get her following James's departure he can't quite believe his luck. In the Danish version, Gurn is played as a chirpy Jack-the-lad who fancies his chances of getting Effie all along. Because of these three differences, the POB version comes across as the unfolding of an inevitable and unstoppable tragedy, while the Danish version seems too light and less substantional (and hence more 'frivolous').

These three differences, to me, give the POB version the

[Mel Johnson]

Now, this is an tangent, but remember, tartan, except for government sett for Highland regiments was under the Act of Proscription from 1747-1782, and was illegal to wear. There were historically very few "clan tartans" which followed names. The concept of clan tartan is very much a modern concept, following the beginnings of the Highland Revival in 1822 When George IV made a Coronation Progress to Scotland and wore tartan. When Victoria and Albert bought Balmoral in 1848, the Highland Revival got into full swing and became something of a mania. However, the practice of wearing a single tartan as a "clan tartan" is not borne out in historical evidence. It's very much a modern practice. Paintings of historic Scots show many different tartans within a group, and sometimes even on only one person! David Morier's 1746 paintings of the Battle of Culloden Moor show wide disparity in tartan. Morier wasn't very good at faces, but he was good at clothing and equipments.

[vaganova]

I had the great good fortune to see Daria Pavlenko of the Mariinsky Theatre as Odette/Odile, Nikiya, Lilac Fairy, and in Diamonds and La Valse over the past few years. I was deeply impressed each time by the essentially human quality she brought to these roles - on stage she was not just a ballerina but a woman. I was able to read every emotion through not just her face, but her whole body. She "breaths" the dance. It takes a great artist to make one forget time and place, to bring joy and tears for the interpretation as readily as applause for the technique. To me personally, D. Pavlenko embodies every quality of a great artist, and the memories of her performances stay most vivid in my mind.

It is sad that she is so often overlooked at the Mariinsky. Although listed as a Principal Dancer, she rarely appears on tours, and when she does is almost never given the opening night (usually a matinee). At home she performs only occasionally. This is a situation where the dancer is promoted to the top spot and then neglected. I guess its all about the politics.... however these dancers should know how much they are appreciated!!

[nysusan]

vaganova, I couldn't agree more with your assessment of Pavlenko. She is blessed with beautiful proportions, strong technique, a flowing lyricism and unerring classical line, yet you hit it right on the head by citing her humanity as her most compelling feature.

I know that she's terribly underused at home but over the past few years she's been included on a number of the Kirov's U.S. tours, and actually been the "lead" ballerina on a couple of them. I've been lucky enough to see her O/O and Giselle, and I'm hoping that Kirov brings her to the Kennedy Center this winter for their Bayadere run and features her heavily in their 3 week City Center Season this spring (ok, I'm also hoping for plenty of Lopatkina,Vishneva & Obraztsova at CC).

There are many ballerinas on the scene today that I admire, but if someone put a gun to my head and forced me to pick just one favorite I think she would be the one!

[jrhewit]

I think the comic, middle-aged Gurn was not Bournonville's idea. Touches like this, and the cutesy trolls in "Folk Tale", were 20th century inventions.

Hilarion's red beard (and Von Rothbart -- Red Beard) were indications of villainy, though. I've read that's fear of Vikings (many of whom had red beards) that got embedded into European culture. One of my family's superstitions was that in Scotland, if a red-haired man was the first to cross your threshold after midnight New Year's Eve, you would have bad luck for a year.

Many believe that good luck will come to a house visited for the first time in the new year by a dark haired 'first-foot' carrying a piece of coal and a bottle of whisky. Often a dark haired guest, already in the house, will have coal and whisky thrust upon them and then be pushed out just before midnight to be welcomed back in just after, but this rigging of the first-foot is disapproved of by purists.

[chiapuris]

I had the great good fortune to see Daria Pavlenko of the Mariinsky Theatre as Odette/Odile, Nikiya, Lilac Fairy, and in Diamonds and La Valse over the past few years. I was deeply impressed each time by the essentially human quality she brought to these roles - on stage she was not just a ballerina but a woman. I was able to read every emotion through not just her face, but her whole body. She "breaths" the dance....... To me personally, D. Pavlenko embodies every quality of a great artist.........

It is sad that she is so often overlooked at the Mariinsky........ I guess its all about the politics.... however these dancers should know how much they are appreciated!!

I concur with your assessment of Daria Pavlenko.

To me she is an inimitable artist-- from my first view of her Nikiya in 2003, and since then, Diamonds and SL and Lilac Fairy and various Forsythe works, and choreographic experiments that other principals wouldn't touch-- superb in her every stage appearance.

The Mariinsky artistic direction seems to underappreciate/underestimate her, especially when one looks at some of the direction's inexplicable casting decisions. The audiences, however, seem to me to show a deep appreciation of Ms Pavlenko's artistry.