The films of Derek Jarman & Terence Davies

[dirac]

I plucked this quote by papeetepatrick from the Modern Dance forum for discussion. I do not have time to respond just now, but if anyone would like to, please get the ball rolling!

papeetepatrick writes:

Speaking of film directors, I'd like to know if filmmakers like Derek Jarman and Terence Davies are perceived as 'victim artists.' I only saw 'The Last of England' some years back of the former, but recently watched Davies's 'Distant Voices, Still Lives' and 'The Neon Bible.' This is a more sorrowful kind of thing than I usually care for, but I thought Davies was convincing in his sincerity. 'Distant Voices...' is the better of the two because he knows Liverpool far better than the Deep South, but in both I was struck by his use of music. It can work very effectively even when outrageously broad and somewhat corny, as using the whole 'Gone With the Wind' overture (including the opening bells) for sheets hanging on an impoverished family's washline, or that marvelous choir he uses in 'Distant Voices...' in this long Christmas montage of Liverpool housefronts. That's conducted by Simon Preston and is Britten's 'Hymn to the Virgin' followed by 'In the Bleak Midwinter' and is almost indescribably exquisite.

[papeetepatrick]

Recently I also saw Davies's 'The House of Mirth', which probably had a bigger audience than the other things, and it looked more expensively produced. Gillian Anderson was convincing, although it was hard to forget Geraldine Chaplin in the 1981 version. Very worthwhile, but probably ought to be the last word on this story. Extremely fine cast, I even got used to Eric Stolz, but thought he was a bit weak.

[dirac]

Recently I also saw Davies's 'The House of Mirth', which probably had a bigger audience than the other things, and it looked more expensively produced. Gillian Anderson was convincing, although it was hard to forget Geraldine Chaplin in the 1981 version. Very worthwhile, but probably ought to be the last word on this story. Extremely fine cast, I even got used to Eric Stolz, but thought he was a bit weak.

I forgot Davies had directed ‘The House of Mirth.’ I thought it was an honorable try, but I’m afraid I didn’t think Gillian Anderson was right for Lily. It wasn’t anything she did or didn’t do, it’s a matter of casting. Lily isn’t just beautiful, she’s a goddess – you have to believe that she’s a truly superior being, and that others would resent her for it and ultimately try to destroy her for it, although she colludes in her own destruction. (Something akin to the effect Ava Gardner has in “The Barefoot Contessa.”) I just couldn’t see Gillian Anderson arousing those kinds of emotions.

I had the same reaction to Eric Stoltz, but it could have been bias as I’m not a fan. I think Selden has to be a match for Lily – although Selden is weak.

[papeetepatrick]

[ It wasn’t anything she did or didn’t do, it’s a matter of casting. Lily isn’t just beautiful, she’s a goddess – you have to believe that she’s a truly superior being, and that others would resent her for it and ultimately try to destroy her for it, although she colludes in her own destruction. (Something akin to the effect Ava Gardner has in “The Barefoot Contessa.”) I just couldn’t see Gillian Anderson arousing those kinds of emotions.

I agree, and that's why I never forgot Chaplin, although I can't remember another thing about that version. Chaplin is a very special actress, one of my favourites, and at that time was very goddess-like. Even the kooky Karen Hood of 'Welcome to LA', riding around neurotically in taxis all day, was something that has never been seen on film. Interesting that she got the real Chaplin look, but also got to look so glorious in it, as in that red dress at the end of the same film. That's partially why I was surprised I liked Anderson, though, because as the film deepened, it occurred to me that that sort of look might have been one that had charisma in Wharton's Old New York, even if I'd rather see it elsewhere. He's a worthwhile director, though, and I was glad to see him getting actors by now like Laura Linney, Dan Ackroyd, Anthony LaPaglia, and Eleanor Bron.

[Estelle]

I vaguely remembered that Terence Davies' version of "The House of Mirth" had been discussed here a few years ago... and here it is (in a 2002 discussion about books) :

http://ballettalk.invisionzone.com/index.p...indpost&p=50714

[dirac]

Thank you for that, Estelle. I see I said more or less the same thing back then, only more churlishly.

[Helene]

I think Selden has to be a match for Lily – although Selden is weak.

I agree. I think that Selden has to appear to be a man of substance, who shows his weakness precisely when he lets Bart down.

I also had trouble believing Gillian Anderson as Lily Bart, but not as much as I had trouble believing Winona Rider in The Age of Innocence.

[sandik]

... I had trouble believing Winona Rider in The Age of Innocence.

But Michelle Pfeiffer as Ellen Olenska was quite lovely, I thought. (and Geraldine Chaplin played her mother, just to make this thread even more twisty...)

And I did think that Gillian Anderson was a great Lady Dedlock in the recent BBC production of Bleak House (played on PBS in my part of the world)

[Helene]

But Michelle Pfeiffer as Ellen Olenska was quite lovely, I thought. (and Geraldine Chaplin played her mother, just to make this thread even more twisty...)

I loved her physically. I just wish she hadn't swallowed her dialogue so much.

[canbelto]

I also had trouble believing Gillian Anderson as Lily Bart, but not as much as I had trouble believing Winona Rider in The Age of Innocence.

Really? I thought Ryder gave an astonishing performance in Age of Innocence. She was exactly as I'd imagine May: doe-eyed and seemingly innocent, very unimaginative, yet steely and manipulative. I thought Ryder's famous baby voice worked very well. The way May carefully said things like, "Don't you think he's very common?" I really thought she was pitch-perfect, and a nice contrast to the sad, world-weary Ellen.

[Helene]

May is described as Diana-like in the hunting scene. In the context of the book, she is a creature of her upbringing, with few tools at her disposal, and, as Wharton knew so well, imagination would have been a distinct negative. She's supported fully by her society; manipulation not only goes against her upbringing, but has been unnecessary as one of the golden people who've followed the rules and have money behind them. The only thing she has to offer is her innocence and her standing because of it. A wheedling manipulator wasn't the character I perceived from Wharton.

[dirac]

May is described as Diana-like in the hunting scene. In the context of the book, she is a creature of her upbringing, with few tools at her disposal, and, as Wharton knew so well, imagination would have been a distinct negative. She's supported fully by her society; manipulation not only goes against her upbringing, but has been unnecessary as one of the golden people who've followed the rules and have money behind them. The only thing she has to offer is her innocence and her standing because of it. A wheedling manipulator wasn't the character I perceived from Wharton.

Agreed - up to a point. I think there's a very strong implication in the book that May knows exactly what she's doing when she tells Newland about her pregnancy. She understands what he might do and she's not going to let it happen.

(I think this also came up in another old thread - perhaps even the one Estelle linked to!)

Just noting, BTW, that this thread is for other films of the season, not just 'The Queen,' although I'm not trying to stop all conversation in that direction. Keep reports coming!

[Helene]

May is described as Diana-like in the hunting scene. In the context of the book, she is a creature of her upbringing, with few tools at her disposal, and, as Wharton knew so well, imagination would have been a distinct negative. She's supported fully by her society; manipulation not only goes against her upbringing, but has been unnecessary as one of the golden people who've followed the rules and have money behind them. The only thing she has to offer is her innocence and her standing because of it. A wheedling manipulator wasn't the character I perceived from Wharton.

Agreed - up to a point. I think there's a very strong implication in the book that May knows exactly what she's doing when she tells Newland about her pregnancy. She understands what he might do and she's not going to let it happen.

And that is as far as she can go by the dictates of her society. Had that not worked, it would have been over for her.

Now I have to go see "The Queen"

[papeetepatrick]

Just noting, BTW, that this thread is for other films of the season, not just 'The Queen,' although I'm not trying to stop all conversation in that direction. Keep reports coming!

I think that's the other one, dirac; you already had to redirect this one, but all is interesting to me. Anyway, I hope somebody else saw 'Distant Voices, Still Lives,' made 12 years before 'the House of Mirth', but if they haven't, they should try to find it, because it is a truly heartfelt, heartbreaking and poetic film.

[dirac]

May is described as Diana-like in the hunting scene. In the context of the book, she is a creature of her upbringing, with few tools at her disposal, and, as Wharton knew so well, imagination would have been a distinct negative. She's supported fully by her society; manipulation not only goes against her upbringing, but has been unnecessary as one of the golden people who've followed the rules and have money behind them. The only thing she has to offer is her innocence and her standing because of it. A wheedling manipulator wasn't the character I perceived from Wharton.

Agreed - up to a point. I think there's a very strong implication in the book that May knows exactly what she's doing when she tells Newland about her pregnancy. She understands what he might do and she's not going to let it happen.

And that is as far as she can go by the dictates of her society. Had that not worked, it would have been over for her.

Now I have to go see "The Queen"

Helene writes:

And that is as far as she can go by the dictates of her society.

Perhaps - who knows what her next move might have been had the less than 'innocent' gambit failed?

I had actually forgotten which thread I was posting to - I got confused and thought I was on the 'movies of the season' thread. As Emily Litella would say, 'never mind.'

[Helene]

Helene writes:

And that is as far as she can go by the dictates of her society.

Perhaps - who knows what her next move might have been had the less than 'innocent' gambit failed?

Wharton's opus would indicate that May couldn't have one.

[canbelto]

A wheedling manipulator wasn't the character I perceived from Wharton.

I don't think Ryder plays her as a wheedling manipulator. Just as someone who has more going on underneath than her sweet and innocent surface. And that's how it is in the book. May knows that Ellen is a threat, and she gets rid of her. On her deathbed she admits to her son that she knew about Newland's sacrifice and perhaps even pitied him.

The book is very difficult to translate to film, because everything is firmly through Newland's eyes, and in the book Newland's feelings for his wife are very ambiguous. And he vaguely understands that she knows about Ellen, but May is a bit of a stranger to him. In the film Ryder made May three-dimensional, which I liked.

[dirac]

I plucked this quote by papeetepatrick from the Modern Dance forum for discussion. I do not have time to respond just now, but if anyone would like to, please get the ball rolling!

papeetepatrick writes:

Speaking of film directors, I'd like to know if filmmakers like Derek Jarman and Terence Davies are perceived as 'victim artists.' I only saw 'The Last of England' some years back of the former, but recently watched Davies's 'Distant Voices, Still Lives' and 'The Neon Bible.' This is a more sorrowful kind of thing than I usually care for, but I thought Davies was convincing in his sincerity. 'Distant Voices...' is the better of the two because he knows Liverpool far better than the Deep South, but in both I was struck by his use of music. It can work very effectively even when outrageously broad and somewhat corny, as using the whole 'Gone With the Wind' overture (including the opening bells) for sheets hanging on an impoverished family's washline, or that marvelous choir he uses in 'Distant Voices...' in this long Christmas montage of Liverpool housefronts. That's conducted by Simon Preston and is Britten's 'Hymn to the Virgin' followed by 'In the Bleak Midwinter' and is almost indescribably exquisite.

I wouldn't call Jarman a 'victim artist,' but I know others have. I think they're missing the point, though. He's open, he's personal, he's deliberately 'messy,' but he's not a victim artist in the sense that Arlene Croce seemed to be using the term. (I haven't read the journals yet.) 'Jubilee' is a fabulous movie, must see it again.....

[Helene]

A wheedling manipulator wasn't the character I perceived from Wharton.

I don't think Ryder plays her as a wheedling manipulator. Just as someone who has more going on underneath than her sweet and innocent surface.

We'll have to agree to disagree on this one.

[papeetepatrick]

I wouldn't call Jarman a 'victim artist,' but I know others have. I think they're missing the point, though. He's open, he's personal, he's deliberately 'messy,' but he's not a victim artist in the sense that Arlene Croce seemed to be using the term. (I haven't read the journals yet.) 'Jubilee' is a fabulous movie, must see it again.....

Thanks for the thoughts on Jarman, about whom I know less; and also for mentioning 'Jubilee', which I was able to put a hold on just now, and will report back when I see it. I probably need to watch 'The Last of England' again, and for those going to see 'The Queen', there are some interesting 'home movies' of the Windsors in that film. I remember the Thatcher-type asking some returned soldiers 'Did you enjoy the Falklands?' but it's been 15 years since I saw it.

[dirac]

I wouldn't call Jarman a 'victim artist,' but I know others have. I think they're missing the point, though. He's open, he's personal, he's deliberately 'messy,' but he's not a victim artist in the sense that Arlene Croce seemed to be using the term. (I haven't read the journals yet.) 'Jubilee' is a fabulous movie, must see it again.....

Thanks for the thoughts on Jarman, about whom I know less; and also for mentioning 'Jubilee', which I was able to put a hold on just now, and will report back when I see it. I probably need to watch 'The Last of England' again, and for those going to see 'The Queen', there are some interesting 'home movies' of the Windsors in that film. I remember the Thatcher-type asking some returned soldiers 'Did you enjoy the Falklands?' but it's been 15 years since I saw it.

If I want to see home movies of the Windsors, I can always go to my local PBS stations, which are preoccupied with the subject. ('The Queen' actually was a sort of glorified PBS or cable movie, now that I think about it.) I haven't seen 'The Last of England' but I'll look for it.

[papeetepatrick]

dirac--thanks so much for telling me about 'Jubilee'--a very rich and funny film. Jarman echoes Warhol and also some of the early Kenneth Anger movies like 'Eaux d'Artifice' and 'Inauguration of the Pleasure Dome.' Has seen his Pasolini and Antonioni too. The 'Miss Amyl Nitrite' ballet in urban wasteland is not exactly a pristine thing that balletgoers need to see, but it's one of the many quirky things in it, along with gardens full of terrible gnomes, the Lounge Lizards and Orlando, the outrageous 'owner of media'. Made before Jarman became ill and so not so dark as 'The Garden', another of his I now remember seeing, but had forgotten because much of it is silent.

[dirac]

A nice article in The Guardian about “Jubilee.”

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/st...2129917,00.html

Jarman was not a punk: he was too old (36), too posh and his CV was unpromising. He was best known as the stage designer responsible for the look of Frederick Ashton's ballet Jazz Calendar and Ken Russell's film The Devils. But while Malcolm McLaren was in Hollywood trying to raise money for a Sex Pistols film, Jarman shot Jubilee in six weeks on location in London with a tiny budget of £200,000. "The way it was made was very punkish," says Jarman's biographer, Tony Peake. "The producers Howard Malin and James Whaley raised bits of money from all over the place, but it meant filming stopped and started. The whole thing was very perilous."

The film's framing device has Queen Elizabeth I consulting her court astrologer Dr John Dee (played by Rocky Horror Show creator Richard O'Brien). Dee shows his queen a vision of her realm 400 years hence. It is over-run by roving gangs of girl punks and thuggish police

.

[papeetepatrick]

dirac--thank you! So nicely coincidental that I just picked up an old VHS at the library by accident the other day of 'The Tempest', which I'd never seen nor even heard of. Thoroughly loved it, and practically passed out with laughter when he shamelessly lets go with the camp at the end--I tell you, I even thought of 'The Sleeping Beauty', without Bluebirds or White Cats. Then, when the great Elizabeth Welch came in with 'Don' know whyyyy...ain't no sun up in the skyyy....stoh-my weath-uh...' I became almost delirious and nearly woke up neighbours.

He's done a lot more than I'd realized. I'd never seen 'Caravaggio', but everybody told me to go see it when it came out, but I didn't. So I'll see it in a few weeks and report on it--hadn't even connected it up with Jarman, whom I discovered much later.

I found an ancient damning review by Vincent Canby right after I watched the Tempest--had no effect whatever on my enjoyment of the film. I'm going to go see if I can get the link to it....

Yes, here it is: http://movies2.nytimes.com/movie/review?_r...amp;oref=slogin

I daresay he didn't care for it.

[dirac]

I saw Caravaggio on cable some time ago and was unable to finish watching, although if I had been in a theatre I probably would have been able to sit through it. Jarman’s flashback structure did not work for me and many of the lines given to Caravaggio seemed, well, inane. Nigel Terry is a nice fellow but not my idea of the painter.

I saw the Edward II with Steven Waddington on its initial release and liked it much better than Caravaggio – I think I’ll rent it and look at it again, in fact. It helps to read the play first.

I’ve never seen ‘The Tempest.’ If I recall correctly Jarman made it next after ‘Jubilee’ and so I’d think they might have some general resemblances. I’ll have to track it down.