Sweeney Todd: a new film

[sandik]

Saw a wire service notice today that Tim Burton will be directing a film version of Sweeny Todd, with Johnny Depp as Todd, set for 2007 release.

[richard53dog]

Saw a wire service notice today that Tim Burton will be directing a film version of Sweeny Todd, with Johnny Depp as Todd, set for 2007 release.

This is noted on IMDB as well.

Hmmmmm.....

Tim Burton and Johnny Depp. Maybe during production the title will change to Sweeny Razorhands.

Seriously, I had heard that the whole movie musical revival had run out of gas with Phantom.

Personally I don't liked filmed musicals a lot , non stage-based examples such as Moulin Rouge aside, but will wait to see what Tim and Johnny do. Who does Mrs Lovett will be important, too

Richard

[dirac]

Thank you for the heads up, sandik. This project has been bruited about some time, but it’s now sounding more definite. My hopes are not high. I do not see an adequate replacement for Angela Lansbury on the horizon, and although I like Johnny Depp he can't play everything. His most recent serious role, that of Rochester in “The Libertine,” showed his limitations rather baldly. I fear that he will approach the role of Sweeney by camping it up.

I don’t think Burton is the right man here, either. I’m not sure offhand who would be, but you need a director who will give the story a stronger structure and narrative drive than it has, and Burton’s not known for that – he’ll probably try to compensate by overstaging.

I'd like to be wrong, of course, and it would be great to see a musical that enjoyed something like the success of "Chicago" even if I wind up not caring for it much. However, I don't think this is the property to keep the revival going. Depp is very fashionable right, now, though, so you never know.

[Anthony_NYC]

I'll wait and see how casting goes, but Depp in the title role doesn't give me confidence. Unless I'm wrong and he's a strong singer (from what I read he's doing his own vocals) and can truly be menacing instead of just weird. It takes more than voice to land a song, but with rare exceptions voice is a necessary component. Unfortunately, underplaying musical values in musical theater seems to be the trend nowadays. The Broadway revival of "Follies" a few years back showed what a mistake it is in a Sondheim musical to cast actors in the leads who aren't truly musical performers.

It's true about Lansbury. She was so perfect that it's hard to see anybody else in the role. It could be fun if Burton shows some imagination about casting, but if Madonna gets the part I'll probably be slashing the screen with my own razor.

[dirac]

I'll wait and see how casting goes, but Depp in the title role doesn't give me confidence. Unless I'm wrong and he's a strong singer (from what I read he's doing his own vocals) and can truly be menacing instead of just weird. It takes more than voice to land a song, but with rare exceptions voice is a necessary component. Unfortunately, underplaying musical values in musical theater seems to be the trend nowadays. The Broadway revival of "Follies" a few years back showed what a mistake it is in a Sondheim musical to cast actors in the leads who aren't truly musical performers.

Unless there’s someone perfect out there that I don’t know about, I’d cast Meryl Streep. Not ideal but she can do it, she’s well known to moviegoers, and she can sing.

I think there's great pressure on actors in movie musicals these days to do their own singing, even if they don't have real voices. In studio days they were more realistic -- okay, Rita Hayworth can dance but she can't sing, so dub her already and move on. There is a way for actors to mime singing convincingly -- Jessica Lange did a great job in "Sweet Dreams."

[canbelto]

Meryl Streep would be wonderful. She excels in these kind of dark comedy roles.

I think actors doing their own singing can be a hit or miss business. For instance I thought Reese Witherspoon sang wonderfully as June Carter but Phoenix sounded (and looked) so effortful in his attempt to mimic Johnny Cash.

[Anthony_NYC]

Unless there’s someone perfect out there that I don’t know about, I’d cast Meryl Streep. Not ideal but she can do it, she’s well known to moviegoers, and she can sing.

Streep--I was thinking the same thing! It would be wonderful to see what she'd do with the role; I bet she'd be very funny. But is she too old to play against Depp?

Chenoweth would be a natural for Johanna, but I don't know how she is on screen (has she done any movies?). I was just thinking that Joaquin Phoenix would be a better choice for Todd than Depp. He's shown that he can sing presentably, and I can imagine him being terrifically frightening. Depp just seems too mild, but I hope he'll surprise me.

I agree--why not dub. They're lip-synching during filming anyway. (Though I suppose it would be ridiculous to put Terfel's voice into Depp's mouth.)

[sandik]

I think Streep would be a wonderful choice, but so would Glenn Close.

I don't think that this will be a replica of the original interpretations, and yes, Burton will go for the visuals, but it is a film, and that's what film does best. I'll be very interested in seeing what Depp and Burton bring to the work.

[Chedva]

I wonder whether Sondheim will be involved at all?

[dirac]

sandik writes:

I don't think that this will be a replica of the original interpretations, and yes, Burton will go for the visuals, but it is a film, and that's what film does best.

True, visual impact is important, but as a few of Burton’s own pictures demonstrate, striking visuals alone aren’t going to make for a successful whole. Movies are also great at storytelling. (If Sweeney Todd as written was perfectly constructed, there would be no worries, but it’s not.)

Glenn Close is a good idea, too, although my impression, which could be mistaken, is that Streep is a stronger singer. Both Streep and Close are in their middle fifties and Depp is in his early forties, so I think that’s a difference that can be finessed.

[papeetepatrick]

Glenn Close is a good idea, too, although my impression, which could be mistaken, is that Streep is a stronger singer.

You are not mistaken. They let Glenn Close sing, but I've never understood why. Worst was that TV production of 'South Pacific', which she was way too old for on top of the rest. And Streep's also a far stronger actress, even if I don't usually get swept away by her. I wish Gena Rowlands wasn't too old and could sing, she'd be magnificent.

[papeetepatrick]

Vanessa Redgrave would be better than either Close or Streep, and they could dub her singing. She's definitely still got the energy for it, as her continued stage rigours prove.

[dirac]

Thank you for confirming my impression, papeetepatrick. I had only heard Close on television in a clip from "Sunset Boulevard" and she didn't sound too good, but I didn't want to draw large conclusions from that.

(I love Gena Rowlands. You should check her out in 'The Skeleton Key,' which came out last year. Not the greatest thriller ever made, to understate somewhat, but a fine opportunity for Rowlands.)

[bart]

I don't really have much to say about Sweeney Todd, being one of the few people on earth not to have enjoyed it in the two productions I've seen. (Though I was impressed by Lansbury.)

As to the actors, I'm with pateetepatrick. Close, like some dancers in dramatic roles, seems to impose character from the outside, but leaves the uncomfortable feeling that there is an emotional vacume within that she cannot penetrate no matter how hard she works.

Streep's acting technique, I have read, also starts from the outside -- but at her best this connects with a very real and moving inner life. I'd love to see her Mother Courage at Central Park.

Redgrave commands both the exterior and the interior equally well. But are film audiences today as willing to accept dubbing the way audiences in the 60s were? Wouldn't some kind of well-coached semi-sprechgesang, preserving the actors's own vocal tone, work better?

[dirac]

Dubbing isn't a problem if it's done correctly -- and if the actor matches up with the voice. I mentioned Jessica Lange as Patsy Cline earlier. She really used her body beautifully and she had an imposing physical presence that matched up well with Cline's voice. Anthony_NYC notes that you can't put a voice like Terfel's together with Depp, and that would be true even if Depp mimed well; he doesn't have a body that goes with that sound.

I've noted, however, that in the publicity surrounding recent musicals, the fact that the actors do their own singing is invariably cited as a plus even if the actors in question can't really sing (or dance). Dubbing seems to be frowned on in a way it wasn't in the past. That might be a hurdle.

I think the inside/outside distinction is sometimes misleading -- it's very helpful but also can lead to oversimplification of a complex process, IMO.

Redgrave would be fabulous but she might be considered too old for a screen version. And she is English, which is not essential for Mrs. Lovett but it's a big help.

[carbro]

Dubbing isn't a problem if it's done correctly -- and if the actor matches up with the voice.

Isn't usually the singer who must match up?

n the publicity surrounding recent musicals, the fact that the actors do their own singing is invariably cited as a plus even if the actors in question can't really sing (or dance). Dubbing seems to be frowned on in a way it wasn't in the past. That might be a hurdle.

The Milly Vanilly (sp?) legacy lives on . . . and on . . .

[dirac]

Dubbing isn't a problem if it's done correctly -- and if the actor matches up with the voice.

Isn't usually the singer who must match up?

Not in the case of Cline/Lange, or any other musical biography where the use of the originals' voices is contemplated.

It can actually be rather fun, depending on the context, when such matching isn't even attempted. The movie version of 'The Beggar's Opera' in the fifties is one such. No attempt whatsoever is made to disguise the fact that the actors are dubbed (save for Olivier, who should have been) and it works.

[papeetepatrick]

I've noted, however, that in the publicity surrounding recent musicals, the fact that the actors do their own singing is invariably cited as a plus even if the actors in question can't really sing (or dance). Dubbing seems to be frowned on in a way it wasn't in the past. That might be a hurdle.

This is so unfortunate, as 'Chicago' proved with both singing and dancing: all the leads should have had both their singing and dancing dubbed even if we got weird filtered effects; I just can't forget Anne Reinking in 1977. They also let Melanie Griffith do it on B'way for awhile--desperate, I guess, but it's still running, although I don't think her gig had anything to do with it. Dubbing, as for Deborah Kerr by Marni Nixon, does sometimes work well. She was also very good, if not great, for Natalie Wood and Audrey Hepburn. Redgrave actually even needed to be dubbed when she was young, as in 'Camelot'. Mitzi Gaynor sang beautifully in 'South Pacific', but Rossano Brazzi was definitely worth bringing in Giorgio Tozzi's voice for; they were perfect, I thought. There are all sorts of examples, but the singing in 'Guys and Dolls' comes to mind as awful except for Sinatra.

[carbro]

Well, what the heck are movies, anyway, if not illusion? I have no objection to using stunt doubles, dancing doubles or singing dubbers as necessary -- or even desirable.\

Dubbing isn't a problem if it's done correctly -- and if the actor matches up with the voice.

Isn't usually the singer who must match up?

Not in the case of Cline/Lange, or any other musical biography where the use of the originals' voices is contemplated.

Well, clearly in cases such as those, it would be extreeeeemely difficult to have had Patsy Cline, Ray Charles, or either of the Cashes matching to their portrayers. And in those cases, it should definitely be up to the actor to match the singer.

[Anthony_NYC]

Isn't usually the singer who must match up?

Dubbing, as for Deborah Kerr by Marni Nixon, does sometimes work well. She was also very good, if not great, for Natalie Wood and Audrey Hepburn.

Deborah Kerr was better than either Wood or Hepburn at matching up to Nixon's singing. Watch the way she moves in the musical numbers in "The King and I" or the title tune of "An Affair to Remember"--she is really quite superb, very eloquent and musical, with a real understanding of how the act of singing affects the whole body. I've always wondered if this was natural to her, of if Nixon helped her with that aspect of her performance.

[papeetepatrick]

Deborah Kerr was better than either Wood or Hepburn at matching up to Nixon's singing. Watch the way she moves in the musical numbers in "The King and I" or the title tune of "An Affair to Remember"--she is really quite superb, very eloquent and musical, with a real understanding of how the act of singing affects the whole body. I've always wondered if this was natural to her, of if Nixon helped her with that aspect of her performance.

Excellent points, and I should have thought of them myself. Where you see it in its most uncanny form is in 'Hello, Young Lovers.' This is the most exemplary dubbing/acting I know of. Of course, Kerr has more range as an actress than the other two as well. I do think, though, that Nixon's voice was richer at the time of 'The King and I', and also that Hepburn does manage to merge with Nixon at the very end of 'I Could Have Danced All Night.' Sometimes the lip-synching is even off when it's the same person: in that zany and wonderful opening to 'Hello, Dolly!', 'Just Leave Everything to Me,' Streisand doesn't match her filmed and singing mouths perfectly, although that hardly matters, since she is musically at her most fabulous in that movie, and that could be what she's never been forgiven for.

[dirac]

papeetepatrick writes:

Of course, Kerr has more range as an actress than the other two as well. I do think, though, that Nixon's voice was richer at the time of 'The King and I'

I've read that at some points Kerr's and Nixon's vocals were merged, so the voice we're hearing is often a combination of the two.

Streisand doesn't match her filmed and singing mouths perfectly, although that hardly matters, since she is musically at her most fabulous in that movie, and that could be what she's never been forgiven for.

She got blamed for everything that wasn’t her fault.

We're wandering off topic, but it's a fruitful discussion, so I'm letting it proceed.

[canbelto]

Is the singing in Umbrellas of Cherbourg dubbed? (This is someone who can barely think of the scene at the gas station without bawling.)

[dirac]

Yes, ‘Umbrellas’ was dubbed.

[papeetepatrick]

I've read that at some points Kerr's and Nixon's vocals were merged, so the voice we're hearing is often a combination of the two.

Amazing dubbing was also done for Rosalind Russell in 'Gypsy' by Lisa Kirk. It's so close to Russell's speaking and singing voice you can't believe it, esp. since Russell does sing 'Mr. Goldstone' and half of 'Rose's Turn.' Of course, that's Hepburn in parts of 'Just You Wait' and 'Wouldn't It Be Loverly.' They tried to put her vocals back together again in 1993-4, but it didn't work; she wasn't made to sing bright, clear songs. When I first saw 'Umbrellas' I thought it had not been dubbed, because they had chosen very well there, too, and not tried to get something that would emphasize formality or professionalism. They found a voice perfectly suited for exquisite young Deneuve.

I sure wish they'd dubbed Alyson Reed in 'Chorus Line.' 'What I Did for Love' sounded so tinny and shallow.

There are comparatively so few musicals brought to the screen, that it would really be nice if they could get some of them to be artful. I'm not sure there is much you could do with 'Rent'; anyway, the originals sang, but few would have cared had they not. The 2003 Resnais 'Pas Sur la Bouche', an old 20s French operetta should have been released all over the country; people would have read subtitles for this one. It was shown here at the Walter Reade Theater in a French Film Festival and is by far the best screen musical I've seen since 'Hair.' Truly gorgeous, and may be on some French DVD.

Anyway, we've all found some examples of very fine dubbing, and that's why they should hire Ms. Redgrave! However, she is so fierce, and is scheduled for B'way in 2007, so it's probably out. Ms. Streep would do a good job on this one.