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(SPOILERS) Olympic skating thread


canbelto

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Hee, loved how Dick Button said "Dying Swan" was a specialty of Anna Pavlova and Maya Plisetskaya. Is he a secret member of Ballettalk? :wink:

I thought Plushenko's skating was excellent but the choreography had little to do with the music and it was WAY too frontloaded.

Is it just me, or did it seem really odd to see such bravura technique to the music of DYING SWAN?

-goro-

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Johnny Weir was the one who skated to The Swan. I thought the moves -- bravura though the were (and had to be) -- suited the music very well. The choreography was deftly assembled. As a program, it was superior to Plushenko's which was simplistic and repetitive between the elements and, as canbelto notes, had nothing to do with the music.

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Just a note: the new judging system (IJS: International Judging System) provides a significant 'bonus' for jump elements skated at the end of the program.  This is where you see the 'fitness' (or lack  :wink: )of the athlete come into play...

That applies to the free skate (long program) only, though. There is no bonus (10% of base value added to base value) for distributing elements in the short program, and, thus, no incentive.

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Johnny Weir was the one who skated to The Swan.  I thought the moves -- bravura though the were (and had to be) -- suited the music very well.  The choreography was deftly assembled.  As a program, it was superior to Plushenko's which was simplistic and repetitive between the elements and, as canbelto notes, had nothing to do with the music.

Hi Cabro!

I thought Johnny came off much better in the interview immediately following his short program. IMO the pre-skate montage really didn't do a thing for him. I thought to myself 'what a brat.' However, he won me over with his grace: He skated beautifully! Personally I think he has much better line and body proportion than Plushenko. Technically, Plushenko may have the edge, but Johnny has

nerve, grit and something that Plushenko didn't display much of - grace! That's surprising because he's from St. Petersburg for goodness sake. Well, stranger things have happened. Remember Baiul and Kerrigan, and the girl (whose name escapes me) who upset the field in 2002 at Salt Lake City? I think it's going to come down to quads, artistry and grace. If Johnny nails it on Thursday,

it will be very close.

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I think it's going to come down to quads, artistry and grace.  If Johnny nails it on Thursday,

it will be very close.

Plushenko had a 2-point differential in the component scores over Weir. While technically the difference between 8.25 and 7.75 and 8.5 and 8.00 is the same, there seems to be a barrier between going over to the next point. Weir didn't average over 8 on any of the five components, and Plushenko did on four of five; the majority of judges haven't put Weir at that next level. The PCS are factored as "1" in the short program, and for Men, as "2" in the free skate. If the differential holds in the free skate, it will be magnified.

A fall on a quad or triple jump (or combo or sequence) loses -4. To squander a 10-point lead in the free skate, Plushenko would have to fall three times or to go off program and do an illegal quad or combination or leave out a combo altogether. (An illegal combo is how he lost to Emmanuel Sandhu in the Grand Prix Final three years ago.) He has landed a 4Toe/3Toe/2Loop combination consistently for at least three years, and often has a second quad in his program. Plushenko skates first in the last group of the free skate, so he cannot decide whether to do the solo quad after having seen his competitors skate. However, his program has the highest base difficulty of any man in the competition, and he's been landing 4/3/3's in practice. Even when his landings are not the prettiest, the height and air position in his jumps usually compensate. And last year in Moscow, with a double hernia and without a quad in the qualification round, he was within one point of Lambiel's quad-filled, best performance in international competition.

Weir has attempted one quad in competition ever (a fall), and even if he lands what he's done in practice (4Toe/3Toe/3Toe), that make up a little less than three points of his deficit, if Plushenko lands a 4/3/2. Weir is going back to his Otonal program from last year, which didn't even include all of the potential jumping passes that men are allowed. If he hasn't upgraded that program, and Lambiel and Joubert include their quads and skate relatively cleanly, silver is in jeopardy, because Lambiel and Joubert are within a few points of him.

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Thankyou so much, all of you who have written in great detail and so vividly about the ice skating! At least you have been lucky enough to have seen something.

Unfortunately, I have hardly seen anything and it is my favorite sport. Swedish TV seems to prefer broadcasting, in turn, ice hockey (very popular here), skiing and some weird stuff, where a lot of Swedes participate, curling (!!!). Maybe fun to do, but hardly a spectator sport and not worth hours of valuable viewing time. Then, late at night comes a little bit of skating - OK, no national interest here, the only Swedish skater finished as 23 or something like that so he is out.

Yet, skating is a popular sport here, that is to say, it is popular with women and we just dont count. eh? :wink::angry2:

Thanks again for your knowledgable commentaries, they are appreciated!

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Well, I am terribly sorry you aren't getting the figure skating, Pamela, but four years ago I was mesmerized by the curling, and now it seems to be carried only on a channel that isn't part of my cable subscription. :(

I guess the broadcasters just favor those activities which they think have the biggest audiences in their respective countries. :angry2:

I, too, am deeply grateful for the depth and clarity of some of these expert posts! :wink:

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Your Swedish young man, Kristoffer Berntsson is a wonderful skater, and made top 10 at Europeans last year. Like the Finns, Swedish skaters have wonderful, soft blades and edges. Sweden is part of a developmental program, along with Denmark, Great Britain, and a few other smaller federations, and the results are showing: Berntsson continues to improve, and Adrian Schultheiss has promise (although he beat out my sentimental favorite, Filip Stiller, who has been behind Berntsson forever, when finally, Sweden had a second spot at the European Championships). Lina Johansson is lovely, but she was, unfortunately, injured this year and not skating her best. The young pairs team of Pylkina/Hogner is wonderful with great basics, but one of them was injured before Europeans, and, as a result, they couldn't compete there to meet the qualifying criteria for the Swedish Olympic Committee.

Berntsson has a big following among North American and European fans on the figure skating boards. He's one of the most admired OES (Obscure European Skaters, a term created on Figure Skating Universe), particularly for his creative programs. He should be earning 7's at least in his choreography and interpretation according to the written guidelines. It also doesn't hurt that he's very cute in a sport where just about everyone is good looking.

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Now, really, Helene, how on earth do you know all these people? Have you been here?

All these guys are household names to me, as my best friend's daughters train at the same club. Here, we believe quite a bit in Stiller, but I must say that Berntsson has improved immensely lately. Another name to watch is Pylkina, I have actually spoken to her mother who is a trainer - but I believe she is back in St. Petersburg now but left her daughter here.

The real reason why the Swedes are not so good at skating is the lack of training facilities. Ice halls are occupied by kids playing ice hockey (boys, that is) and when they finish, figure skaters are allowed in. Kids attending school then wont be able to start practising until quite late when they are already tired.

I will certainly mention to them that their names are known in the US as well - that will cheer them up! :tiphat:

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One problem I see with Plushenko's skating is that it doesn't have the intensity that it did when he had that ginormous rivalry with Yagudin. These two hated each other, on and off the ice, but they kind of spurred each other towards new heights. In SLC, nerves got the better of Plushenko. But after SLC, no one has really stepped up and challenged Plushenko, and it's made his programs duller. He used to have really quirky programs that were not to everyone's taste. But now he does a lot of arm flailing, a lot of spinning, and nails his quads and 3axels, and does seem to be skating by the numbers. To his credit, he hasn't dramatically streamlined the difficulty of his programs, although he certainly could afford to, as none of the other contenders have a secure quad. But I do think his rivalry with Yagudin made his skating fresher and more exciting.

As for Johnny Weir, I see lots of style, lots of potential, but sooner or later he will have to start trying quads in competition. He supposedly lands them very consistently in practice; I honestly think it was a mistake on his and the coaches part to not program a quad in his program throughout the Grand Prix season. If he fell, so what. It would have given him some experience.

The most exciting event might actually be ice dancing. Navka and her partner (forgot his name) are the favorites, but Belbin/Agosto have been getting great "buzz." The judges seem to really like them; they have great chemistry and are a lot of fun to watch on the ice.

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Now, really, Helene, how on earth do you know all these people? Have you been here?

The first live competition I attended was the European Championships in Malmo in 2003. The stadium is beautiful, not like the hockey barns we have in the US. That was when I first saw Berntsson. His skills are so much more impressive live than on TV.

There are a few sources for viewing skating online, if you have broadband internet access. One is CCTV5, which can be viewed through the pplive site. It's in Chinese, but there's a link in English. It requires Windows Media v.9 or higher. Through this shareware, you can choose CCTV5 from the channel listing. They broadcast nearly all of the skaters for the Grand Prix events in the fall, the European Championships, Four Continents, and a lot of the Olympics, although for the Olympics, there's more competition for air time. I've had mixed results over wireless. According to the pplive people, the more online, the better the reception, because of peer-to-peer sharing.

Another is an online service that is available only in Europe; I didn't get farther than being told I wasn't in the right territory:

http://www.yle.fi/urheilu/mediasali/torino...inostream2.html

There have been broadcasts from Brazil, with rather funny and non-expert commentary (Plushenko has been landing 4Axel combinations according to the commentators), and on Russian TV.

Eurosport has been having live audio coverage.

I will certainly mention to them that their names are known in the US as well - that will cheer them up! :tiphat:

Please do -- we're watching them over the Internet, in spite of the US and even Canadian networks who focus only on the top competitors and those from the broadcast country. Berntsson has so many female fans on the figure skating boards, he could host his own harem :)

I loved Pylkina/Hogner when I saw their free skate at Trophee Eric Bompard last fall. They have superb skating skills and the quietness of their blades was second only to Totmianina/Marinin. According to their ISU bios, they train under Pylkina's mother and in Moscow part-time.

I'll be rooting for all of them, hopefully at the 2007 European Championships, if I can get to Warsaw next January.

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One problem I see with Plushenko's skating is that it doesn't have the intensity that it did when he had that ginormous rivalry with Yagudin.

I've seen him live a number of times, and I don't know if I've seen him more intense when he dug into his toenails to pull out his qualification and short program skates in Moscow last year. His dullest performance I thought was at DC Worlds, but he blew off the roof at 2003 Europeans with what I think was his best ever long program, St. Petersburg 300, which he followed with his Nijinski tribute in 2004.

To me, Yagudin and Plushenko are like Sobikov and Smirnov or Tebaldi and Callas. Completely different animals, with a small subset who like and appreciate both for what they are, and in the case of Plushenko/Smirnov/Callas, in spite of or because of their excesses.

As for Johnny Weir, I see lots of style, lots of potential, but sooner or later he will have to start trying quads in competition. He supposedly lands them very consistently in practice; I honestly think it was a mistake on his and the coaches part to not program a quad in his program throughout the Grand Prix season. If he fell, so what. It would have given him some experience.

Mathematically, that would be true if Lambiel, Joubert, Takahashi, and Sandhu landed all of their jumps -- which has happened once in the last two years, for Lambiel in his quali round at Moscow -- but what he needed to do today was to do the number of jumping passes he is allowed, which means one three-jump combo, two two-jump combos, and five solo quads, triples or 2Axels. He did seven jumping passes, leaving out one, and only completed eight jumps, instead of the 11 he's allowed.

He said if he felt good today, he'd do the quad, but if he felt like "Nick Nolte's mugshot," he wouldn't. The bus schedule changed from once every ten minutes to once every half hour, and he was late in getting to the arena. It sounds like he felt more like Nick Nolte's mugshot, and he substituted a 2Axel in place of the quad.

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Another problem with Weir was that with his offbeat, outspoken personality, he quickly became a favorite of the media, and has spent a lot of time doing interviews and whatnot. I think that it might have distracted him -- after the short program, NBC attempted to interview Plushenko, who curtly cut them off, saying that he didnt have anything to say until the LP was over. I think Weir, being very young, has been so wowed by the Olympic experience that he hasn't been as focused or concentrated as he should be. The mistake he made (skating through a planned jump) seems like a bizarre loss of concentration.

But the story that really broke my heart was Emanuel Sandhu. Sandhu perhaps with a clean short could have been within a point or two of Plushenko. His jump technique was great, his artistry superb, his spins are famously excellent. But his problem is also one of concentration -- after nailing a quad/triple he popped a triple axel and then fell on a lutz. His LP was even more of a disaster. So much talent, so much potential, but he can never hold it together. Such a shame.

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after the short program, NBC attempted to interview Plushenko, who curtly cut them off, saying that he didnt have anything to say until the LP was over.

Plushenko was about to speak, but Mishin, his coach, told him not to. That is why he turned down the chance to do the interview with NBC.

I think Weir, being very young, has been so wowed by the Olympic experience that he hasn't been as focused or concentrated as he should be. The mistake he made (skating through a planned jump) seems like a bizarre loss of concentration.

According to some of the play-by-play I've been reading, Weir was about to do the flip, but there was a rut on the ice, and he circled around the rink before attempting the jump again. But earlier in the program, it looked like he had forgotten his choreography.

Weir had a hard season. In his intereviews, Q&A's, and journals, he described how he knew Tarasova was returning to Russia to work for the Russian Figure Skating Federation, and that his summers in Connecticut were over. Tarasova choreographed a free skate to Liebestraum, but it was difficult for him to tell her that he just didn't feel the music. She then choreographed a program to music by Mrvica, some of which Slutskaya used for last year's free skate. USFS monitors told him the levels weren't high enough. He felt like he was betraying Tarasova by changing the program around, after all of the work they did on it. Then, after US Nationals, he said he watched the tape, and he was bored watching it. That's when he reverted to Otonal with changes.

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Wow after watching that I must say I've never seen an uglier Olympic competition in my life. Rubber legs. I really don't like this COP system that rewards rotations, whether you actually land the jump or not. Plushenko skated cleanly, but he seemed to clearly know he had the gold wrapped up, and his music was just flat out weird. The Godfather meets techno. His program was again really frontloaded, which gave it a really awkward feel. I felt like I could slice his program in half. First half: nonstop jumping, with some arm flailing. Second half: spins, spins, and more spins, with a jump here or there. He deserved the gold, but his program didnt' have the elegance of Kulik's or Yagudin's IMO. It's not a surprise -- Plushenko has always been known as an excellent jumper, but I found both of his programs disappointing.

I was really disappointed with Weir. He skated cleanly, and was one of the few men who's programs seemed well-choreographed and elegant. But missing a jump and then making up his choroegraphy as he went along really killed his chances. If there's anyone that truly "choked" it was Weir. I liked Jeffrey Buttle and Stephene Lambier but both of them made major mistakes. I'm also happy for Evan Lysachek for bouncing back after the disastrous LP. Sandhu of course broke my heart, AGAIN.

And was it just me or did Plushenko look really really bored on the medal stand? I think that's what happens when there's no close competition. It wasnt really a competition, it was more like a coronation.

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Buttle's program was far more difficult than Weir's: the differential in base difficulty was almost twice the lead that Plushenko had over Weir after the short program, and even if the 5 points Buttle received for the fall on the 4Toe was removed, his technical execution would have been 12 points higher than Weir's. Weir had one jump combination, a 3Axel+3Toe, the very first element of his program. His second 3Axel was double-footed and under-rotated; he received credit for a 2Axel only, less a deduction for the faulty landing. His spins were less difficult, although wonderful, and he left out one element, his last jumping pass. His choreography was simpler than Buttle's, and the music is fairly one-note and muzaky, until the straightline footwork music, where it breaks out a bit. Buttle's choreography was full of transitions and moves like the Ina Bauer, which highlighted the various changes in the music. Although smooth, I thought Weir was rather listless. Buttle had the highest energy I've seen from him since last year's Canadian championships. He was one of the few who came out and seized the moment, even if his program was flawed. Lambiel was cautious, but that's not surprising since he strained knee ligaments two weeks ago and was off ice for a week. He had a hard time executing his spins because of knee pain, and his jump landings were weaker than usual, but his opening 4Toe/3Toe/2Loop was a thing of beauty.

I wish CBC had shown Lysacek and Savoie. Lysacek beat Lambiel in the free skate, and Savoie came in 5th, a great showing for a skater who is chronically underscored.

Had Buttle not been competing under CoP, he most likely would not have attempted the 4Toe, but would have substituted another jump. For all of the criticism of CoP that it doesn't give the quad enough credit, so that skaters are downgrading their programs to be safe, it gives incentive to try the quad, if it can be rotated. Buttle made a valiant attempt to land the quad. Weir didn't try, and his diluted program ranked sixth, after Plushenko, Buttle, Lysacek, Lambiel, and Savoie.

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I enjoyed Savoie a great deal. Too bad about his lutz in the short, because he might have had a shot at medaling.

There are a number of editorials written about Weir's demise, ultimately pointing to his failure to seize the day. We saw living proof that it's better to fall on a quad than not to attempt one at all.

I think this new systems definitely has some kinks to it in that there is far less program to most of the skaters' performances. It's very calculated.

But the real problem for me is the presentation of Olympic figure skating this year -- period. I remember when it was an evening, from start to finish, of excitement and drama. Now, it's like living with a crazed channel surfer with attention deficit disorder -- figure skating, skiing, curling, speed skating -- switch, switch, switch every few minutes. I think this is a large part of why they lost so much of the American audience this year.

And -- it was also disappointing to be driving home last night and hear the results on National Public Radio hours ahead of time, along with commentary on same.

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For Johnny Weir, I've got to say that missing that jump was a pure loss of concentration. And he must have known he needed another combination jump. He said, "I didn't feel my inner peace. I didn't feel my aura was right." I think he has some growing to do. One mystery is why Weir subbed his planned quad for a double axel. He could have gotten more points with any triple.

In interviews, Plushenko has said he wishes to continue to 2010. I wonder if he'll actually do it. I suspect not. Gold medalists rarely continue four years of eligibility. Of all the Russian male winners, I think my favorite had to be Ilia Kulik. Despite the giraffe costume, his skate was just perfect, and it was exhuberant. And he was so cute. :tiphat:

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But the real problem for me is the presentation of Olympic figure skating this year -- period.  I remember when it was an evening, from start to finish, of excitement and drama.  Now, it's like living with a crazed channel surfer with attention deficit disorder -- figure skating, skiing, curling, speed skating -- switch, switch, switch every few minutes.  I think this is a large part of why they lost so much of the American audience this year. 

It certainly made me a non-viewer, as it has for the past few years. As someone who is not a big tv fan, will go to great lengths to avoid commecials, and who has other things to do at this time of the year, watching or recording just became too complicated. That goes for skiing as well as figure skating.

Reading the fascinating reports on this thread makes me regret that I didn't try harder.

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Re Kulik ... and, as he first went pro, he took admirable risks at a tender age to try his hand at innovative choreograpy. Sometimes the technique suffered, but I didn't mind because I could see what he was trying to do as an artist.

Gosh, yes, I do miss the Olympics in which Wylie earned his silver. I still have the yellowed news clippings from then. I remember when he barely made the U.S. team that year, after not having a great skate at Nationals. Before he knew whether he would go to the Olympics, he sat there so calmly and said that "nothing happens by accident." Afterwards, when he did make the team, many were vociferous about Wylie being washed up and wanting Mitchell to take his place. Meanwhile, the press ignored Wylie, concentrating on "Bowman the Showman." I remember every time that commercial would come on, I'd talk to the tv, saying, "Just you wait, it's going to be Wylie."

Of course, we all know what happened from there. After he got the silver, Frank Carroll said that Wylie was actually robbed of the gold, and that Petrenko's performance was the weakest gold medal figure skating performance he'd seen. (It was also suggested that since Wylie's world ranking was 11th at that point, the judges couldn't wrap their minds around giving him the gold). But Wylie was ecstatic with the results.

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In one of her two books, Christine Brennan quoted Wylie, whose reaction was that it was the press who wanted the bigger Cinderella story with the gold medal, and he was happy with silver. His skate wasn't flawless, either. Petrenko started out with a very strong skate, but his perennial lack of conditioning -- typically, Soviet/Russian coaches do not make their skaters go through full-run throughs at practices -- kicked in, and the second half of his program was extremely weak. In my opinion Petrenko's was a stronger skate than the messy skate that Scott Hamilton had in Sarajevo. Hamilton won neither the short or long programs in those Olympics; it was only his lead in the school figures that won him a gold medal.

Kulik's mother made him his "giraffe" costume, which is why he wore it. He became such a great skater as a professional, and when, apart from Yagudin, I see the way Stars on Ice has been cast, I think it was shameful that they dropped his contract.

Buttle, who I think is a more developed skater than Wylie was an eligible skater, is the muse of David Wilson, one of the most creative choreographers for competitive programs. He came in second in the free skate, but his two mistakes in the short program, a fall on the 3Axel and a faulty 3Lutz, put Lambiel out of reach, especially with Buttle's fall on the quad.

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As a rule Hamilton was second or third in figures to a school figures specialist such as Jean-Christophe Simond or somebody and pulled to victory in the free skate, a generally successful M.O. as Scotty had not lost a competition since 1980. This time he was number one. He wasn’t feeling well in Sarajevo and so he did not shine in the free, finishing second in the short and long programs to Brian Orser. Orser was seventh in the figures as I recall and it’s a credit to his remarkable gifts as a free skater that he was able to haul himself up to the silver.

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I'm watching Olympic Ice and for one I really agree with Jamie Sale. About Weir's "I missed the bus" excuse Jamie said that the day of her LP she got locked out of her dorm. She said "It's an excuse and I don't think it's a good one." And I don't really like Jamie, but I agree with her. I also agree with David's assessment of Plushenko: "This is *not* entertaining skating."

Edited by dirac
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