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Russians and turning


canbelto

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Oh, Joyce Cuoco (Stuttgart) also used this same Marnee trick. Joyce's feet/pointe shoes were very square at the toe.  And she was sliver, thin.  Joyce could balance on one foot/leg for hours!!! Though I wouldn't have wanted to see her dance 'Who Cares?'...   Marnee's trick was nothing compared to her lovely, sexy, giggly, charming, womanly style.

I only saw Joyce as a very young dancer. Not only could she balance, she could pirouette like a top.

When the Stuttgart Ballet presented Cranko's Swan Lake in NYC back in the 70s, Joyce would do the female part of one of two couples in the Neopolitan Dance. She would piroutte 3 revolutions, 4, maybe even 5.

It was actually sort of bad taste because she was out of synch with the other three

dancers, but the audience went absolutely WILD. I went 5 times.

She created such a splash, she was given a performance of the Cranko Romeo and Juliet.

Richard

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Back to the Russians, though.

One of the more enduring images of their recent visit to the Met was the fouette sequence performed by Maria Alexandrova. Her first rotation was almost a pirouette a la seconde, as she drew the leg in for the rond de jambe very late. Each succeeding turn (all of them solid) changed the phrasing minutely, so that bit by bit, by the end, her rotations were almost entirely in retire. It was a very beautiful effect. :)And these were not the super-fast fouettes I am accustomed to seeing from Russian dancers (and don't particularly like).

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Back to the Russians, though.

One of the more enduring images of their recent visit to the Met was the fouette sequence performed by Maria Alexandrova.  Her first rotation was almost a pirouette a la seconde, as she drew the leg in for the rond de jambe very late.  Each succeeding turn (all of them solid) changed the phrasing minutely, so that bit by bit, by the end, her rotations were almost entirely in retire.  It was a very beautiful effect.

Yes, I love those fouettes too where the ballerina's a la seconde is gorgeously emphasized before the passe. Takes much more control, strength and turnout than the other style we're often seeing. Was this performance, you're referring to, Alexandrova's Kitri in Don Q?

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Pharaoh's Daughter.

I saw Zakharova in the lead of Pharaoh's Daughter. She was absolutely gorgeous. As was Alexandrova in the secondary slave role. But all I clearly remember from that performance was the underwater maidens. Twenty or so minutes of bubbly, inventive choreography. Reminded me of Mr. B's Ballo a little, Wheeldon's mermaids in Carnival of the Animals a little, but with much Bolshoi scenery/costumes and flair that resembled being inside a glass of freshly corked champagne. So charming. My favorite section of that ballet.

Also loved the grand (very Bolshoi...), elaborate processions of the second-act Court scene. There must have been hundreds of finely costumed dancers, supers, parading with such elegance and arrogance, all looking absolutely fabulous!

Back to turns, fouettes.... Alexandrova's were far less spectacular in Don Q (3rd act) than I was expecting. In the 1st act, she surpassed any pre-reviews I had been given. Those jumps(!), her bold, sexy power(!)... a strong, womanly fire of a Kitri! But Alexandrova's 3rd act, avec grand pas, variation, then fouette section ended up being pretty bland, and she executed those fouettes in the punch out style -- not the gorgeous ones you were describing earlier. No doubles. Nothing flashy flirty with her fan either...

Sorry, I missed Alexandrova in the lead of Pharaoh's Daughter. I would have gone just to see those fouettes you were complimenting!!!

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Interesting topic. I think turners have to to with body type. I tighter body generally seems to be the better turner. The more hyperextended, flexible body type seems to have more trouble and with everything there are always exceptions. Other factors, large flat big toe, lack of fear, strong abdominals. I studied with a ballerina who is in the guiness book of world records for turns and one of the things I think that she was least able to teach was pirouettes. It came so naturally to her that she was far more accomplished at teaching other aspects of technique. On the other hand I once experienced a students (a beginner) who came into a class who could do a triple pirouette without even having an understanding of which foot to put in front or which way to turn. :lightbulb:

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I was trained in the Vaganova technique and even had the opportunity to learn fouettes from Galina Mezentseva.

In my personal experience, the instructors always emphasized placing the weight on both legs and they were very big on teaching control.

A common exercise was to do a half pirouette to the right, then alternating to the left. After that they'd have us do very slow pirouettes and then we would gradually increase our speed.

I think it's just more important to be able to exercise precise control rather than just whipping around in the hopes to get as many turns in as possible.

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MissChristine are you discussing pirouettes from 5th or 4th? If you are discussing from 5th then yes, the weight is on two feet in the preparation. FYI, Mezenseva may have been a very beautiful dancer but she is not, to my knowledge, a trained teacher from Vaganova Academy. I assure you what I have stated about the weight on the front leg in 4th position preparations, as well as in 2nd position(the supporting leg only), is the way it is taught according to the Vaganova method. What is confusing for many (an perhaps professionally trained dancers who graduated from Vaganova Academy as students) is the recommendation to push off from two heels. This is indeed a very important aspect of the turn however there is no weight shifting to the back leg in 4th position. The recommendation has to do with the full usage of the working leg so the student does not use the working leg weakly. Read Kostrovitskaya, 1995 edition, page 360. A pedagogy book is only a guide, nor an edict, therefore, I will email my student at Vaganova Academy an find out if perhaps they have changed how they are doing pirouette since I was certified to teach 10 years ago.

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>....they'd have us do very slow pirouettes and then we would

>gradually increase our speed. I think it's just more important

>to be able to exercise precise control rather than just whipping

> around in the hopes to get as many turns in as possible.

Excellent training for turns; slower is better in learning control

and gaining strength.

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vrsfanatic,

Just want to thank you for your insights on teaching technique and your willingness to share information. I have been fortunate to watch you teach and several of my students have had the benefit of your teaching. I have applied several of your corrections and teaching techniques to my teaching style and find it is to my students advantage. I personally really appreciate it and think it is one of the benefits of these boards to be able to learn something new or to hear different schools of thought or opinions on how things are approached. The free exchange of information is what makes a teacher great IMHOP and you definitely are. thanks. :thanks:

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Question: how much attention do American schools pay to all these details of turning, and to the slow, developmental process of building up a strong turning ability?

So much attention is given in the dance press to those students who are "natural turners" or are prodigies of one sort or other, that I don't really know what is done to teach the others.

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MissChristine are you discussing pirouettes from 5th or 4th? If you are discussing from 5th then yes, the weight is on two feet in the preparation. FYI, Mezenseva may have been a very beautiful dancer but she is not, to my knowledge, a trained teacher from Vaganova Academy. I assure you what I have stated about the weight on the front leg in 4th position preparations, as well as in 2nd position(the supporting leg only), is the way it is taught according to the Vaganova method. What is confusing for many (an perhaps professionally trained dancers who graduated from Vaganova Academy as students) is the recommendation to push off from two heels. This is indeed a very important aspect of the turn however there is no weight shifting to the back leg in 4th position. The recommendation has to do with the full usage of the working leg so the student does not use the working leg weakly. Read Kostrovitskaya, 1995 edition, page 360. A pedagogy book is only a guide, nor an edict, therefore, I will email my student at Vaganova Academy an find out if perhaps they have changed how they are doing pirouette since I was certified to teach 10 years ago.

I am talking about pirouettes from both 5th and 4th.

During turns from 4th they did often expect you to lean forward a bit but they didn't want all the weight placed on the front leg. I remember them stating that, no matter what position you were turning from, it was important to use the back leck to push you up and into the turn and that doing so is made nearly impossible if you place all the weight on the front foot.

I am also aware that Mezentseva is not a trained teacher from the Vaganova Academy. She offered her services as guest instructor/coach when she visited during her tours w/ the St. Petersburg Ballet (and some guest appearances at a Summer Ballet Intensive) and it just so happened to be the time in my education that I was learning fouettes.

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Bart, the short answer is that it really depends on the school, and within each school, it often depends to a large extent on the teacher, too.

David Howard believes that turning is a feeling or a knack and can be taught in a free form and then tidied up later. I think that a combination of both works. One must work technically to avoid any bad habits but if the dancers dont sometimes try it (for better or for worse) they never get it.

What are the panels thoughts?

:wink:

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bart I am able only to speak of my experience working in a well known American ballet school with no syllabus for teaching prior to my studies in Russia. The school in which I currently teach approaches almost everything we do in a slow, methodical manner.

For the most part, pre-Russia, I taught beginner through advanced intermediate levels of young students and many adult classes (I learned a lot about teaching with the adults). Luckily for me, the directors of the company as well as the director of the school all had a recognition of the fact that training ballet students well, at every level can build a school structurally and financially. The school director, a very famous American ballerina (a natural turner for her generation), had been known to have had a great technique and an interest in good teaching. The teachers all developed their own way of doing things and we made a generation of ballet dancers who have various abilities when it came to turning. Some better than others.

The recognition that there are natural turners is a fact, just as there are some students who have a more natural jump. Even natural turners need to learn how to turn balletically. Breaking natural turners of there unballetic look while turning if they have been able to spin, just because they can spin any old way, is a most difficult thing to do, but basically they either change or they do not work at a professional level. Teaching pirouettes well, is always a challenge. Students pratice turning on their own without teachers in the room relentlessly. Go watch students left alone in a room in front of a mirror. They practice stretching and pirouettes. It is pretty tough to start jumping around without a technique class. Most teachers with whom I communicate professionally, approach the classroom work of pirouettes just the same as other movements in classical ballet, a lot of discipline mixed in with a little bit of loosening the strings so the dancers are able to figure out what their bodies can do in various circumstances. Part of teaching is the recognition that things will not always be perfect and the students must learn also to deal/cope with whatever comes their way.

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I guess I mention this because of Svetlana Zakharova's Swan Lake. It was technically amazing in every way, except when she had to turn. Then she inexplicably seemed weak and flawed. But I've seen this with other Russian-trained ballerinas too. Does their training simply not emphasize top-like turning?
Zakharova's supposed turning weakness was the cause for a very interesting discussion. But since this is the internet and myths form easily and die with difficulty I must report the following:

I just watched a video of Svetlana Zakharova (Don Quixote, act 3) and her fouettes were impressive: 8 sets of 2 fouettes followed by a double, fast, clear and with not much travelling. If she can't turn I don't know who can.

We're all guilty of forming opinions of dancers after 1-2 viewings. I do it all the time since I rarely have the chance to see a star dancer more than once. But maybe we should keep in mind that dancers have bad shoe nights, trouble with the raked/unraked stages, partnering misunderstandings, recent injuries etc that we may not know about. Perhaps it's not fair to judge them from 1 or 2 videos but only after we have watched them many times...

Just a thought... :dunno:

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We're all guilty of forming opinions of dancers after 1-2 viewings. I do it all the time since I rarely have the chance to see a star dancer more than once. But maybe we should keep in mind that dancers have bad shoe nights, trouble with the raked/unraked stages, partnering misunderstandings, recent injuries etc that we may not know about. Perhaps it's not fair to judge them from 1 or 2 videos but only after we have watched them many times...

Wow -- is that true! And thanks for the reminder, chrisk217.

Also, I realize I neglected to thank vrsfanatic for her very thoughtful, informative and helpful reponse to my inquiry about what is done to teach turning. Thank you !!

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Interesting topic. I think turners have to to with body type. I tighter body generally seems to be the better turner. The more hyperextended, flexible body type seems to have more trouble and with everything there are always exceptions. Other factors, large flat big toe, lack of fear, strong abdominals.

Don't forget arm muscles. The stronger the muscles, the more strength the turn gets from 'whipping' the second arm across.

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