Russians and turning

[canbelto]

As I've watched more and more ballet, I've noticed that Russian-trained dancers, as a whole, are inexplicably weak turners. There are exceptions of course (Nina Ananiashvilli, Tatiana Terekhova, Mikhail Baryshnikov) but the ballerinas especially are in general inconsistent or weak turners. Their pirouettes often end sloppily. Their fouettes don't have the snap and confidence of a Gillian Murphy or Cynthia Gregory. They consistently seem to run out of steam. It seems strange to me that Russian academies, which are notoriously vigorous, would produce ballerinas that are technically amazing in every other way (beautiful jumps, gorgeous posture) but are weak or ho-hum turners. I guess I mention this because of Svetlana Zakharova's Swan Lake. It was technically amazing in every way, except when she had to turn. Then she inexplicably seemed weak and flawed. But I've seen this with other Russian-trained ballerinas too. Does their training simply not emphasize top-like turning?

[Hans]

Canbelto, this is so very different from my experience! I've found Russians to be consistently strong turners, and indeed Vaganova training emphasises a great deal of control in pirouettes. In fact, I've found that the weak turners are more the exception than the rule and that people such as Murphy also tend to be the exception when it comes to American or British training. (Julie Kent isn't exactly a whirling dervish, for example, whereas Michele Wiles, Adrienne and Ashley Canterna, Vanessa Zahorian, Ekaterina Osmolkina, Viktoria Terioshkina, Alla Sizova, Larissa Lezhnina, Tatiana Terekhova, and Altynai Asylmuratova all turn or turned beautifully.) Which Russian dancers do you notice not turning well?

[MakarovaFan]

Here are some more Russian ballerinas who are/were excellent turners:

Maya Plisetskaya

Gabriella Komleva

Ekaterina Maximova

Natalia Bessmertnova

Nadezda Pavlova

[mohnurka]

Having watched Zakharova's Pharaoh's Daughter, I must say that she is an excellent turner!

[canbelto]

Which Russian dancers do you notice not turning well?

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Well it's not that they CAN'T turn, it's that I notice their turns are more deliberate, slower, and don't have that fast, snappy quality. Of course Maya Plisetskaya is an exception, as are others. Natalia Dudinskaya for example.

But I've noticed:

- Veronika Part, not a great turner

- Alina Cojocaru - I adore everything about this beautiful, enchanting ballerina, but I've seen her try to turn and it's not a thing of beauty either

- Natalia Makarova - again, I adore Makarova but I think her turns are very weak and slow

- Rudolf Nureyev - again, one of my favorite dancers. But he consistently starts turns and then can't finish them. He just sort of stumbles out of the turns.

- Svetlana Zakharova - I remember being underimpressed by her turns in La Bayadere which I saw live, and in this new Swan Lake video I thought her turns were the weakest part of her arsenal

- And I have to disagree about my personal favorite ballerina of all, the divine Altynai. I think she is divine in every way but her turns I also find to be surprisingly disappointing -- slow, often very deliberate, as if she has to pause and set it up. She doesn't turn with the kind of abandon I look for. For instance, compare her turns to Isabel Guerin's in La Bayadere. Guerin's turns seem somehow cleaner and faster, and more spontaneous.

- Galina Mezentseva

- Yulia Makhalina

Perhaps weak isnt the right word. I just find that Russian turns tend to be slower, more "set up", with less abandon. Of course there's Maya Plisetskaya who rips into her pique turns like a wild animal, or Tatiana Terekhova the queen of triples or Nina Ananiashvilli, et al. So it's not a wholesale generalization. But I'm just surprised that dancers (like Cojocaru or Zakharova) who seem perfectly trained in EVERY other way, seem suddenly very lacking whenever they have to pirouette. Maybe I've just seen the wrong Russians, but it's something I noticed.

[Hans]

Ok, I think I see what you mean. Russians do tend to take relatively long preparations. (Did you ever see Nureyev live, btw? On every video I have of him, his pirouettes are impeccable.) And Makhalina, from what I've seen, seems to be rather good at pirouettes.

I think regarding Asylmuratova, although she could balance for days, she got rather nervous about pirouettes, which is natural when one has a flexible body and long limbs. But her fouettés were quite good, IMO.

It seems to me that all of the dancers you're referring to are the long-legged, flexible, "adagio" type dancers who are so popular these days, so that may be one reason they don't do very spontaneous-seeming pirouettes--they really have to concentrate on them. Unfortunately, Russian ballet schools just aren't "breeding" (for lack of a better term) the more compact, strongly-built body type (Chenchikova, Sizova) that turns easily anymore--note that Gillian Murphy and Michele Wiles do not have those pretty Zakharova feet, nor do they have her high extensions or hyperextended knees, and they can both turn for days.

[bart]

Perhaps weak isnt the right word. I just find that Russian turns tend to be slower, more "set up", with less abandon.

It seems to me that all of the dancers you're referring to are the long-legged, flexible, "adagio" type dancers who are so popular these days, so that may be one reason they don't do very spontaneous-seeming pirouettes--they really have to concentrate on them.  Unfortunately, Russian ballet schools just aren't "breeding" (for lack of a better term) the more compact, strongly-built body type (Chenchikova, Sizova) that turns easily anymore

My experience with Russian dancing is limited and tends to be more with the older generation. It leads me on the whole to agree with the above.

Olga Chenchikova, for instance, had incredible mass and density on the stage as well as on video. When performing fouettes or supported turns with an often-smaller man behind her, her torso seemed to cut through the air like someone from another planet: one with much heavier gravity than ours. Conversely, her jumps were rather earth-bound.

Question: is there a negative correlation between strong turners and strong jumpers?

[Hans]

Bart, off the top of my head, I don't think there is such a correlation, when I consider that such great turners as Terekhova and Plisetskaya also had fabulous jumps. I think Chenchikova is a special exception.

[MakarovaFan]

Let's also remember Vladimir Vasiliev, a dancer of dazzling virtuosity and beauty when it came to turns, not to mention jumps. His speed, form and control in his turning technique is, in my opinion, unmatched by any other male dancer, even Baryshnikov.

[Gina Ness]

I thought Nureyev a dynamic turner...some of the best chaines turns I've ever seen. Makarova Fan, I second Vasiliev! I think you all have very astute observations about these wonderful dancers, a few of whom I have never had the privilege to see live or (I admit) on tape or DVD. I'm going to hazard something here...great turning ability is a natural gift. Yes, I agree that great ballet technique is something mastered over many years of training, but all dancers have their natural gifts...abilities that they are born with. Not everyone is a natural turner. You can develop skill, but those who have it naturally will just have an easier time and take it to a level not possible for others. Same with ballon (jumping ability), extension, musicality, etc...The dancer who has absolutely everything is rare and phenomenal, IMHO.

[canbelto]

When I say Nureyev wasnt a good turner, I'm not talking about his ability to pirouette with speed. Nureyev I think was a very good turner while he was actually rotating. But I started to notice that he never could stop rotating and finish in a clean 4th position. He often just puts his free leg down, or trips ever so slightly. I never saw him live but it's just something I've noticed in the videos. In comparison, Mikhail Baryshnikov turns with lightning speed and but knew how to snap to a perfect 4th position.

Among the current crop of men, I'd say Angel Corella is an excellent turner. As is Herman Cornejo. Marcelo Gomes's turns arent quite as impressive. Not that theyre bad, but I see Marcelo Gomes for reasons other than his turning. (Like the fact that he can switch from being a deliciously campy villain to being the most romantic of danseur nobles, and of course his utter complete hotness )

Of the dancers I mentioned above, Gomes and Nureyev are by far my absolute favorites, by the way.

And to move to a different topic, I think the Russians are peerless as far as jumps go. Whether theyre adagio or allegro dancers, the majority of them seem to be able to give the illusion of being suspended in the air.

[Gina Ness]

I certainly agree Angel can turn like a top. And, although I admit I'm , when I was watching Marcelo Gomes as Von Rothbart in the recent ABT Dance in America broadcast of "Swan Lake", I kept thinking, "I'll bet he would be a fabulous Siegfried".

[Paul Parish]

i think there IS a practical understanding that some are turners and some jumpers... Variations are built that way.

There must be something to Cuban training -- the most beautiful, quietest turns I think I've ever seen are Jose Manuel Carrenyo's, and nearly all Cubans I've seen seem to turn fearlessly.

Zakharova is so extremely flexible it's no surprise she has to work to find her placement.

[Hans]

Cubans have a secret:

They cheat.

I took a master class with Laura Alonzo during which she told us not to relevé until we were halfway around our first pirouette, which directly contradicts what most other ballet teachers will tell you: relevé, then turn. And it works very well if your goal in life is to do more pirouettes than everyone else whatever the cost, but if you want to be a ballet dancer, at some point you have to realize that making the audience dizzy is not the main object.

Gina, I definitely agree with you regarding naturally gifted turners. Some people (like Danny Tidwell) have such an incredible ability to pirouette that no amount of training could produce (although good training can come close).

[Helene]

the most beautiful, quietest turns I think I've ever seen are Jose Manuel Carrenyo's

I have to agree. The most rhythmic pirouettes I've ever seen were Phillip Otto's when he danced for PNB. They were never pyrotechnical, but the phrasing to the music was extraordinary.

[Mashinka]

One of the things that have always intrigued me about certain Russian dancers is why do so many of them, particularly the males, turn to the left?

Left turners are generally a rarity in the west and are usually dancers that are left-handed anyway, e.g. Anthony Dowell. In Russia there are too many left turners for them to all be south paws and under Soviet rule children perceived to be left-handed were made to use their right hands anyway.

In general I prefer a right turner, as there seems to me something more symmetrical about turning right. Does anyone have any insight into this practice?

[vrsfanatic]

Quite an interesting conversation! Addressing the issue of Russian turning technique is a big subject matter. To be as brief as possible...there are tours in a raised cou de pied, tours in big poses/from pose to pose and there are pirouettes. In my American training, which has been considered good by most professionals, there was only one catagory of turning. Pirouette!

In the USA, there are so many various ways to teach turning, preparation with the weigh on two feet, prepartion with the weight on one foot, prepartion with the arms in allonge, prepartion with the arms rounded. The rise to demi-pointe/pointe can also be approached differently, rolling up through a stretched supporting leg, rolling up through a rise to demi-pointe/pointe while the supporting knees in still bent/then straighten it, turning halfway around in demi-plie/then rise to demi-pointe/pointe, or springing up. Every way will produce different results mechanically, musically and artistically.

FYI: Russians must study and practice daily in class everything they do to all sides and the reverse. In theory this is done in other countries, methodologies, and styles however the reality is that often times because of time restraints in the West, more emphasis may be put on turning to one side or the other.

As for natural turners, this is a reality. Although I see many dancers (particularly in the male category) completing many revolutions in turning, IMO, not many are actually accomplishing the artistic characteristics of pirouette. Pirouettes are not to wonk around and around endlessly. There should be a fast, very clear rhythmical spot and musical definition to each turn. Tours, basically unstudied in the US, are a slower more spiraling turn. In the case of cou de pied/retire front, they are spotted, however in the case of tours in big poses, they are not spotted at all.

[canbelto]

Cubans have a secret:

They cheat.

I took a master class with Laura Alonzo during which she told us not to relevé until we were halfway around our first pirouette, which directly contradicts what most other ballet teachers will tell you:  relevé, then turn.  And it works very well if your goal in life is to do more pirouettes than everyone else whatever the cost, but if you want to be a ballet dancer, at some point you have to realize that making the audience dizzy is not the main object. 

Hans that is fascinating! Because I have a video with Alicia Alonso doing the Black Swan pdd (a rather odd video). She must be WELL into her forties, yet she does a quintuple pirouette, and in her 32 fouettes she turns like a top, and more importantly, NEVER leaves the box/block of marble in which she started turning. So no travelling whatsoever. And she ends with a big triple. And I'm like, this woman's feet are not feet -- they must be made of absolute steel.

at around the same time, Alonso filmed her Giselle, and while it's very beautiful, there her technical weaknesses are more exposed. The film cuts away from both her developpes because she's wobbling so badly.

But anyway Alonso definitely turned like a top

[Mel Johnson]

Back to Nureyev for a moment. His best finish from turns was not in fourth, but in fifth. He did this famously in his version of Desiré's variation in Act III Sleeping Beauty.

[bart]

I was browsing in Gretchen Ward Warren's "The Art of Teaching Ballet," and came upon these comments by Gabriela Taub-Darvash, who studied at the Vaganova School in the 1950s:

""When I went to Moscow in 1952, I could count on one hand the number of dancers who could do 32 fouettes. When, later, I arrived at the Kirov school, I found that very few could turn there either. The minute I started doing what they said -- forcing my turn-out to an extreme I didn't have, holding my chest open in the wrong way -- I, too, was unable to turn, even though I had always had a natural facility for pirouettes. They taught preparations with the weight on both legs in demi-plie, and there were various other instructions given, such as 'hold your back,' 'hold your arms,' and 'don't tilt your head.' But they didn't teach students HOW to turn. Either you knew naturally or you didn't turn." (p.83)

She adds: "I noticed that the ones who turned well did not take momentum from a demi-plie with weight on both legs. They kept their weight on the leg they were going to releve on. The other leg helped them to push up."

[Hans]

Vaganova technique is very different now than it was in the fifties--in fact, that goes for ballet technique everywhere! I was taught at UBA to do pirouettes the way Darvash describes in your last paragraph, Bart. I have to say that at UBA as well as at the Vaganova Academy according to what I've learned from vrs, they most certainly DO currently teach students how to turn, and they do not force turnout beyond what a student can do, although students are encouraged to develop their turnout to the greatest extent possible, as they would be at any ballet school worth its salt.

[vrsfanatic]

...They taught preparations with the weight on both legs in demi-plie...

Having studied pedagogy at Vaganova Academy aka Kirov School in the 1990s, preparations have been/were always taught with the weight on the front leg, never on two legs. As for Moscow aka Bolshoi...one leg also, at least from 1961 to the present. Read Tarasov. My late husband, quite a respected pedagog of classical ballet in the US and Europe, studied in both GITIS, with Tarasov and Vaganova Academy with Pushkin. Having traveled internationally with my late husband, as he trained teachers such as Gailene Stock, now Director of RBS, the information was the same. I am not sure what Darvash is actually trying to say! Perhaps she was confused by the advise of pushing from 2 heels?

Having just read the Darvash chapter in the Warren book, I can only surmise that perhaps the quote was taken a bit out of context or the Darvash misunderstood what she saw when she arrived in Russia. Maybe her memory was not as clear? FYI: Having studied from age 16-19 for the 1st 3 years of Darvash's tenure in the USA, I do have knowledge of her work/ideology when she first left Romania. She spoke no English, so there is always room for misunderstanding, but weight placement in preparation for pirouette is not something I remember having to change and she most definitely brainwashed us, her students, all of us between the ages of 15-19, that she was teaching pure Vaganova.

As Hans has already said, the teaching of ballet has changed immensely worldwide from the 1950s, however my teachers of pedogogy, my late husband and Janina Ciunovas, also a teacher singled out in the Warren book (my teachers of pedagogy in the USA), as well as Valentina Vasilievna Rumyanseva (student of Vaganova/teacher of pedagogy at Vaganova Academy in St. Petersburg, Russia, my teacher of pedogogy in Russia) , generations ranging from 1914-1936 (dates of birth) also basically teach/taught the same thing. I do not use the word "teach" lightly. I know too many teachers who give class. Please believe me, I was taught very well the whys and hows in Russia, by my late husband and his partner in pedagogy, Janina Ciunovas, and all my American teachers...weight on the front foot in preparation for pirouettes en dehor/dedans, from 4th position.

FYI, I do not believe Darvash is certified to teach Vaganova. She basically taught what she remembered as a student, as many professional dancers do. Although she is an excellent teacher, she herself says she eventually developed her own method.

Edited October 20, 2005 by vrsfanatic

[bart]

Thank you, vrsfanatic, for your explanation. As an old ballet-lover and quite new dance student, I find that experiencing the mechanics of ballet movement (however humble the results) has completely altered what I see from the audience. I notice so much more. And my sense of awe at what ballet dancers can do has increased.

[sz]

Cubans have a secret:

They cheat.

I took a master class with Laura Alonzo during which she told us not to relevé until we were halfway around our first pirouette... 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Btw, Eglevsky and D'Amboise (NYCB) also cheated this way with their turns.

That cheat method however wouldn't work for Cuban females turning on pointe shoes... and they are some of the very best turners I've ever, ever seen. It's a muscular, alignment thing too, plus the shape of their feet -- square toes, duck feet, helps a lot with balance/turns.

Marnee Morris (NYCB) was perhaps the finest, most interesting, turner I've had the pleasure of watching. Mr. B choreographed the turning solo for Marnee in 'Who Cares?' Her cheat method could hardly be detected unless you knew exactly when/where to look. Marnee's secret was the ability to hop ever so slightly while still turning, while still on pointe. So she was able to accomplish several fouettes or turns in any position without ever coming off pointe!!! I adored watching her in class taking this secret to extremes! Marnee often used her special trick on stage as well, when necessary. Balanchine loved it, but didn't encourage it -- I'm guessing too circusy for his standards.

Oh, Joyce Cuoco (Stuttgart) also used this same Marnee trick. Joyce's feet/pointe shoes were very square at the toe. And she was sliver thin. She could balance on one foot/leg for hours!!! Though I wouldn't have wanted to see Joyce dance 'Who Cares?'... Marnee's trick was nothing compared to her lovely, sexy, giggly, charming, womanly style.

[Hans]

Yes, I saw a video of a Russian dancer performing fouettés without coming off pointe at Varna a few years ago, but I don't think there was any type of hopping involved. It was interesting.