What is "ballet music?"

[Farrell Fan]

Solor says the music of Pugni is great -- it's not classical music, it's ballet music." (My emphasis).

Solor probably didn't mean it that way, but I remember when the term "ballet music" came with a built-in sneer, as something unworthy of serious consideration. No serious musician would play it, or sensitive listener waste time hearing it. Balanchine, more than anyone, helped erase the distinction between "music" and "ballet music" by using classical music as ballet music.

[sandik]

Solor probably didn't mean it that way, but I remember when the term "ballet music" came with a built-in sneer, as something unworthy of serious consideration. No serious musician would play it, or sensitive listener waste time hearing it. Balanchine, more than anyone, helped erase the distinction between "music" and "ballet music" by using classical music as ballet music.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

"using classical music as ballet music" As did Isadora Duncan for modern dancers.

(like the "built-in sneer!")

[Hans]

This won't be a popular opinion, but I don't like ballets choreographed to concert music. I think it's gilding the lily--concert music is meant to stand alone and doesn't need the embellishment of dancing.

Tchaikovsky and Stravinsky both wrote "ballet music"--that is, music that was intended to be choreographed to. Both were great composers and their music is not only beautiful and interesting musically, but also eminently suitable for dancing. Minkus, Pugni, Drigo, &c understood what many today do not: that their music was never meant to stand alone, but was always intended as accompaniment for dancing.

In fact, Tchaikovsky's music was criticized at the time as unsuitable for dancing because it was too symphonic (and when it comes to certain parts of Swan Lake, I think that's an accurate criticism). That's not to say that ballet music can't be great, or that one can't dance to great music, but music doesn't need to be great to be good ballet music, and in fact, some of the best ballet music is not great as concert music, and some of the greatest concert music in the world does not work well, in my opinion, as accompaniment to dance.

[PetipaFan]

I wonder why Balanchine chose the particular music he used in ballets, why for example that Bizet Symphony in C and not some other? Was he always choosing works that were good for dance or did he just pick what he liked?

[Helene]

I wonder why Balanchine chose the particular music he used in ballets, why or example that Bizet Symphony in C and not some other?  Was he always choosing works that were good for dance or did he just pick what he liked?

In the case of Symphony in C, at the time there was a lot of fuss over the newly found score, which Bizet had written at age 17. Balanchine choreographed Palais de Cristal for Paris Opera Ballet, which made the score an appropriate tribute.

But I've never read anywhere that he choreographed a ballet to a piece of music he thought was inappropriate for dance or not up to par, unless it was a commissioned score. He didn't love Nabokov's score for Don Quixote for example, and refused to choreograph to Stravinsky's Symphony of Psalms, because he felt that it was inappropriate as a stage piece. (Instead, he had the dancers sit onstage and listen to it.) There was a lot of music he loved which he didn't think was appropriate for dance (Beethoven, for example) or to which he didn't feel he could do justice (much Bach and Mozart).

[Solor]

I dont know about any of my fellow dancers, but Ill tell you Id rather dance to an old variation by Pugni or Minkus or Drigo any time over Stravinsky! Or even Tchaikovsky (he didnt write that many anyway).

I just watched "Fille du Pharoan". Theres a part right after the act I adagio (which by the way is a great peice of music) of Aspicia and Ta-or where 3 variations are danced: for Ta-Or, Ramzea, and Aspicia. The music first of all is GREAT. I mean it fits the movements of classical ballet like a glove, and it makes the onlooker wanna get up and start clapping at the end! Just listen to that reaction from the audience!

The first time I ever saw ballet I was 8 years old, and it was on TV. It was a performance of Ruzimitov and Terekhova in the "Le Corsaire" pas de deux (this is on "The Magic of the Kirov"). Ill never forget my reaction to these 2 awsome humans dancing to that music that was just perfect for the things they were doing. I knew right then I wanted to be a ballet dancer. Of course, people need to be creative, and try new things and all of that. They need to keep things "moving forward". But Im sorry, as far as Im concerned nothing beats a well trained classical ballet dancer dancing to an old variation by good ol' Pugni, Minkus or Drigo. I think that thier music stands alone quite well.

But anyway yes I did say that - Its not classical music - in the conventional scense. Just becasue a full orchestra is playing it doesnt make it classical music (in the way that most people think of it). Its ballet music!

[PetipaFan]

"There was a lot of music he loved which he didn't think was appropriate for dance (Beethoven, for example) or to which he didn't feel he could do justice (much Bach and Mozart)." -- Helene

It's hard to believe that Balanchine never did anything on Beethoven? If you ask 'what is ballet music' from the perspective of Balanchine it's something interesting but not too interesting.

"In the case of Symphony in C, at the time there was a lot of fuss over the newly found score" -- Helene

He chose something that would be popular and it's not too interesting either.

[Petra]

I dont know about any of my fellow dancers, but Ill tell you Id rather dance to an old variation by Pugni or Minkus or Drigo any time over Stravinsky! Or even Tchaikovsky

However, writing as a member of the audience, there are a number of ballets to Stravinsky or Tchaikovsky that I like to watch.

[bart]

I dont know about any of my fellow dancers, but Ill tell you I'd rather dance to an old variation by Pugni or Minkus or Drigo any time over Stravinsky!

I can imagine that this is widely shared by dancers and also by audiences, especially if you include as "ballet music" the modern, Broadway and pop or even rock music with familiar melodic styles and relatively uncomplicated 2/4, 3/4 or 4/4 beats that is used by so many choreographers today.

I recently spent 90 minutes watching a group of 19 dancers learning a section of Stravinsky's Rite of Spring. All that counting. It demanded enormous concentration from all the dancers. And -- something which surprised me -- it was also exhausting to be sitting and watching from the sidelines.

I am often in wonder when I see dancers able to perform to very "modern" music (early 20th century or last week's) or even to silence or near-silence. And I'm not surprised that audiences (me included) may feel extremely uncomfortable -- or even cheated of the simpler and more accessible pleasures of, say, a waltz.

With modern music, there's so much that can go wrong. And -- most humiliating for this ballet watcher -- I might not even notice if something DID go wrong.

[Farrell Fan]

I defer to Solor and Hans in their expressions of the dancers' point-of-view. But from the point-of-view of an audience member who sees more than fifty ballet performances a year, and has been doing so for forty years, I can honestly say I never would have become this addicted if all I'd heard was the music of Minkus, Pugni, and Drigo.

[Hans]

Now now I never said all we ought to dance to is Minkus, Pugni, and Drigo. My point is that ideally, ballets ought to be choreographed to music written for ballet. Besides, Tchaikovsky wrote music specifically for ballet, too, and no one complains about hearing that.

[Michael]

Too bad there aren't more composers today who compose specifically for Dance. Particularly in an unpretentious sort of way. There are commissions, sure, which have tended to be highly ambitious and pretentious. But it's rare to see a contemporary composer publish a group of dances just out of love for the form --

Come to think of it, however, the use of folk or national dances for form, or melodic, or rhythmic inspiration is pretty much dead because those genres, those animals as it were are pretty much dead. Pop music has pretty much killed off everything else.

Free associating, but you could make a similar argument for what's killed the genre of "Song" apart from pop.

[Michael]

Second Thought --

There is no particular reason why a composer today needs to limit herself or himself to contemporary materials for inspiration. There is an incredible wealth of raw musical material out there for composition and variation upon -- it's all open to being exploited. But it's curious how little interest there is in doing that. (I love John Adams and Phillip Glass -- but the dance potential of this material is quite limited -- a basic oscillating step and variations thereupon; Wheeldon has shown more intuition in using Ligeti and Part, but Ligeti in particular is quite limited in what you might call by analogy his "palate").

But back to Farrell Fan's topic: Ballet Music should be dance music, wherever and however you may find it. It doesn't have to be consciously composed for dance -- but it certainly helps when it is, if the composer is gifted in that direction. Look at some of what Paul Taylor has choreographed to.

[silvy]

I think that "ballet music" must be theatrically effective also. Think of "Giselle": while it it not great classical music in its own right, it builds the atmosphere fantastically..

Because, as far as my opinion goes, ballet is not only"dance" but "theater" as well, and that implies scenery, costumes, atmosphere... AND dancing.

Personally, Minkus and Drigo and Pugni are well suited to dancing. As well as the ballets created by classical composers (like Tchaikowsky and Glazunov)

[Michael]

Think of "Giselle": while it it not great classical music in its own right[.]

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Actually I think it is at least very very good classical music (which only reinforces your point). I can and do listen to it over and over. I'd call Adam's score for this pre-Verdi. Rossini also might not past muster as "great" with the Austro-German school -- but It's plenty great to me and his contemporaries considered him a God.

You make a fine point indeed about Ballet being theater as well as dance. That's probably the great justification for John Adams in Dance.

[scherzo]

I know this is an old topic but I was thinking about this just today (there ARE threads on everything here!) - what really makes good ballet music? OK, maybe it doesn't need to be 'great' music.

Say you wanted to commission a score for a ballet you were choreographing: what would you prefer?

• Rhythm, of course, but then most music has regular rhythm of some kind.
  Instrumentation? I remember reading online once that a piece (I think it was Debussy's Arabesques) was too 'thin' for dance, which implies that a choreographer reacts to different layers within music that solo piano music may not provide.
  A melody, presumably, but then look at Pierrot Lunaire.
  Tonal or atonal?
  etc
  

I don't mind Minkus, Pugni et al except for the fact that Indian spectres dancing to Viennese-style waltzes is a rather incongruous sight. Yes, there was something wrong with that sentence (and what's with those sticky-out skirts?) but still.

I think that taking existing music and choreographing to it is fine as long as you treat it well (e.g. no horrible arrangements, cuts etc). But then I came across some music the other way round, in ballet first and then realised it was actual music.

PS Out of interest, has a choreograher ever thought a piece would be good, and then tried to think of what to do with it and changed their mind? What makes scores 'inappropriate'?

[artist]

When I read the title of this topic, what popped in my mind is what I hear the radio announcer say time and time again: ...the Ballet Music from the Opera....

It [the ballet section] doesn't have it's own name, just that it's from whatever opera. Thinking of Amadeus, Mozart was shown to compose his music and set aside a certain part for ballet scenes. In other words, he had music intended for dancing, hence, "ballet music".

[SanderO]

This is an interesting discussion. What would be some examples of music not suited to ballet or dance? Philip glass is danced to in In The Upper Room... and that does not sound at all like Swan Lake!

I usually associate ballet with some sort of formalism and classically structured music... and not being a musician I can't really define even that... but ballet music is the music which can be "played" on a human in "formalistic motion. I see the "steps" in ballet like the notes and phrases of music and the choreography like the "orchestration" of a theme into a complex and nuanced weave of motion and form and space.

For example, I can conceptualize a single dancer or a pas de deux performed to a soloist.. piano or violin for example.. but I find it hard to imagine a full company choreographed to a solo piano or violin. In my mind it doesn't make sense. I can see a single dancer or a pas de deux danced to large orchestral scores or multi part baroque... as they are just another "instrument".

All these musings from a non musician and one who has no education in dance.

Of course some music is literally a "type" of music for a type of dance... like a waltz. It's like what else could you choreograph to waltz music?

But I haven't a clue as to how a choreographer conceptualizes a a dance from music. To me it is a mystery and a miracle and why I love to see ballet... It is like watching a painter create a painting... it's that a miracle and a mystery?

[Hans]

(and what's with those sticky-out skirts?)

You mean the tutus? That's what ballerinas always wore in 1877, which is when La Bayadère was choreographed.

[scherzo]

(and what's with those sticky-out skirts?)

You mean the tutus? That's what ballerinas always wore in 1877, which is when La Bayadère was choreographed.

Sorry, my comment was poorly phrased (irony is rather difficult to put across on the Internet!). I was commenting on the slightly odd nature of discussing 'in-authenticity' in ballet (i.e. waltzing Indian temple dancers) when, as paraphrased from an old POB Bayadere programme, a tutu is introduced and already we are at one remove from reality.

Would it be true to say that classical tutu ballets were more concerned with enchainements and therefore made-to-measure music like Minkus perfectly suits the style? It has clear rhythm so melody is not so important. Then when narrative choreographers like Ashton and Cranko began to create, they were more concerned with the shape of a musical phrase to show an emotion or action.