What "bad ballets" do you really love?

[klingsor]

Arpino's "Trinity".

I couldn't stomach it but it usually brought the house down.

[Mel Johnson]

Diana and Actaeon is Petipa and therefore not trashy.

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No, Diana and Actaeon is Vaganova, and therefore possibly trashy.

Great teacher, not necessarily good ballet mistress.

[carbro]

No, Diana and Actaeon is Vaganova, and therefore possibly trashy.

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Phew! That's a relief! I was afraid of offending Hans twice in one night.

Definitely Diana & Acteon!

[Hans]

What about the original Diana and Actaeon pdd? Vaganova wasn't around when it was choreographed. Is it notated?

I still don't see what's wrong with Vaganova's choreography--no press lifts, no weird jumps (unless the dancers interpolate them, which is not her fault) good structure. Besides, Vaganova also edited Ivanov's Swan Lake Act II pas de trois and you don't hear anyone calling that "trashy."

And don't worry--historical accuracy doesn't offend me.

[cargill]

My absolutely favorite guilty pleasure of Scheherezade. I adore it, but then I tend to love any ballet with harem pants (sort of like any movie with the word Shanghai in the title!).

[bart]

"Spartacus" actually seems to be archaic, it has an epoch, a style, a "register" of images and rhythms that allows a kind of heroic ideal to get portrayed -- the tenacity is the point, Spartacus's ability to hold on and endure not just cruelty but massive indifference to human rights and not sink into despair. It couldn't be beautiful, but it can be sublime....

Might there not be a difference between enjoyable trashy ballets & great bad ballets? Spartacus has a plot & tells a story clearly & efficiently. The characters are clearly delineated. There is no argument between the score & the choreography. It arcs to a climax & resolves in apotheosis. It makes sense. Its "badness" to me lies in the fact that it is outrageously manipulative & moralistic. It's characters are totally one dimensional. &, yes, it has a good deal of trashy choreography. But it is pure in a balletic sense.

I need some help here. I love the ballet, but am also aware how out of the accepted loop it is as regards plot of "style". Thanks, Paul, for clarifying this for me.

Zerabinetta, your original take on Spartacus actually gave me the idea for this thread, and thanks for that. What specifically in the choreography is "trashy," in your opinion? Do you mean extreme? obvious? limited in scope? exaggerated?

I'd appreciate other comments on this, too, since I don't seem to have the knowledge to give form or words to my very strong impressions.

P.S. Mel. I'm a big fan of Fall River Legend ever since seeing it long ago at Ballet Theater. Anyone know the dancer who originated Lizzie? The stepmother? They were phenomenal, especially all the externalized psychological angst. Ditto the more contemporary feeling Dance Theater of Harlem production which I saw on video.

[atm711]

The original production of 'Fall River Legend' had Alicia Alonso as Lizzie shortly thereafter, Nora Kaye); Diana Adams was the Mother, Peter Gladke the Father, Muriel Bentley, the step-mother, RuthAnn Koesun was Lizzie as a child, and John Kriza was the pastor. A great show

The two Lizzies were a great contrast: In Alonso's softer interpretation, Lizzie came off as a victim of her step mother and father; but with Kaye's performance, she was undoubtedly over the top and I had no doubt that she delivered the 41 blows.

[Alexandra]

At Hans's suggestion (with which I agreed!) I've split all the posts about whether Today's Young would think Petipa ballets were bad here:

http://ballettalk.invisionzone.com/index.p...=0entry163463

(Good to see you again, julip, and thanks for posting this!)

[zerbinetta]

Zerbinetta, your original take on Spartacus actually gave me the idea for this  thread, and thanks for that.  What specifically in the choreography is "trashy," in your opinion?  Do you mean extreme? obvious? limited in scope? exaggerated?

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Having been brought up on Balanchine & then falling in love with Petipa, Ashton & Bournonville in that order, I suppose subtlety is among the virtues I most appreciate in ballet. In general, the choreography of Grigorovitch's Spartacus is in no way subtle. In particular, I'd point to the ooga-booga dancing of the male slave army, the chugga-bugga of the Romans & the general high level of testosterone among corps & principal men.

Then there's the stereotypical vamp of Aegina.

Then there are some of those unwieldy Phrygia-upside-down-in-the-arms-of- her-husband positions (Kenneth MacMillan must have really loved those) during their various pas.

All of this is, to my eyes, trashy.

But it's also marvelous. It's like a ballet vacation from the ballet. Extreme,yes; obvious, yes; exaggerated, yes.

But I love it.

[Paul Parish]

Well, Zerbinetta, that's like making a flower-arrangement out of thistles, oak branches, blackberries, artichokes(ok, bigger thistles), etc -- it can be done beautifully......

the thing about Spartacus that makes it impressive is the intellectual rigor with which everything that's NOT appropriate has been omitted.

My favorite trashy ballet is Light Rain -- esp the adagio, with its ne-hooch-kooch music (it sounds like an X-Ray of "Shimmy Shimmy KoKo Pop") and all those legs wafting around like tentacles....

[zerbinetta]

the thing about Spartacus that makes it impressive is the intellectual rigor with which everything that's NOT appropriate has been omitted.

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Oh Ho! There you go. A choreographer may be as manipulative as he or she wishes as long as the work is based on sound logic.

This is a fabulous construct. Need we limit it to choreographers, though? Might we not include composers (Wagner), painters (Magritte), architects (Gaudi), poets (Ezra Pound), etc.?

I like this concept so well I'm going to adopt it. Thank you Paul.

[bart]

the thing about Spartacus that makes it impressive is the intellectual rigor with which everything that's NOT appropriate has been omitted.

Paul, I'm trying to understand what you mean by "not appropriate." Seems like "not CONSISTENT (with the original premise or style)" might be more appropos. Whatever one thinks of Spartacus, there's a deep consistency in the movement vocabulary, the relation of movement to music, delineation of characters, and narrative methods.

Another thought. I was just browsing through my underlines in Terry Teachout's book on Balanchine and found this ----- "Instead of concocting redundant visual equivalents of the rhythmic surface of a symphony or concerto, he [balanchine] plunged into its inner structure, moving his dancers in silent counterpoint to its unfolding action." Grigorovitch's choreography does what Balanchine tried to avoid. It rides the music. Illustrates it. There's always a place for that (done well) in dance. Think of the choreography for Mickey Mouse in Sorcerer's Apprentice !!!