Question for and about men

[Alexandra]

Just a quickie -- the men at the meeting I described weren't lumberjacks at all. They were all professional men, economists, professors, businessmen.

Estelle made a post on the preceding page that I found fascinating -- that a survey of dance festival attendance indicates that interest in the arts is as much a matter of education and profession (which is, I guess, the current code for "class") as it is of gender.

Ari, I think this is an American problem too, but I'm not sure. I don't know enough non-Americans to know. It might be country-specific -- do young Russian men still like ballet and the liberal arts generally?

[Helene]

It might be country-specific -- do young Russian men still like ballet and the liberal arts generally?

In my one evening survey at the Bolshoi (to hear Evgeni Onegin) I haven't seen that many young people, mostly couples in their 20's and early 30's, at any cultural or dance event in a major theater in the US, including modern dance events. (I don't mean the tiny, avante garde dance events where most of the audience is family and friends of the performers and artistic staff.) I don't know if this is a recent phenomenom, because younger people have more disposable income, but I can't imagine a place in the US where a 3-hour opera is the equivalent of a date movie. It made me kvell.

[Herman Stevens]

In my one evening survey at the Bolshoi (to hear Evgeni Onegin) I haven't seen that many young people, mostly couples in their 20's and early 30's

That's young alright. Teenagers either go with their parents or because they're in ballet school themselves. People in their twenties however spend their own hard-earned and if they like what they're seeing they'll keep going to the ballet for the rest of their lives. They'll have kids and take those to theater, too. And so the show goes on.

I didn't study any papers on this but I'm pretty sure this is the dwindling age group in ballet audiences, especially the men, of course. Companies in Yurp and the US are gagging for more of those twenty- and thirtysomethings.

[EvilNinjaX]

As an aside to this topic:

During his Sunday Miami City Ballet pre-curtain talk, Edward Villella responded to a question about how to expand male interest in ballet:    "It's an effort to get men to think of us as terrifically refined athletes.  Perhaps it would help if we had scores."

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i find this statement very interesting. I think when you see a men's variation, you are profoundly aware that they are incredible athletes. But that's for about 1min and then maybe another 1min in the coda. ANd how many men's variations in a 2hr ballet? even with (say) 10, you get 10min out of 120. So then the rest of the ballet is pretty much girls dancing or "pretty" dancing (or whatever, just not "athletic" dancing). I think it's a bit of tough sell (these days) to get men to watch women in activities. Heck, i think the number of men at ballets prolly outnumbers the number of men at a WNBA game over the course of a year.

ANd yet, there woudl be a danger to "selling" ballet as athletic, b/c then you create an audience who is more interested in the athleticism than the artistry.

i'm just making this as an observation and offering no solution

-goro-

[carbro]

ANd yet, there woudl be a danger to "selling" ballet as athletic, b/c then you create an audience who is more interested in the athleticism than the artistry.

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Have you read Natalia's descriptions of audience reactions at the Maryinsky Festival on the Kirov-Maryinsky thread?

I've been at many performances (but fewer in more recent years) where the audience has gone wild over the athletic feats -- even an arabesque penchee. But if that kind of excitement lures them back, sooner or later they'll discover there's more to it than that. I hope.

[kfw]

I've been at many performances (but fewer in more recent years) where the audience has gone wild over the athletic feats -- even an arabesque penchee.  But if that kind of excitement lures them back, sooner or later they'll discover there's more to it than that.  I hope. 

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This reminds me of a NY Times review, perhaps 5 years back, of a set by tenor saxophonist Joshua Redman at the Village Vanguard, where the audience was said to cheer as if at an NBA game. With its history of “cutting contests,” there is more of a precedent for this is jazz than in ballet (to my knowledge), but it still strikes me as a sadly diminished reaction. I got a thrill from Michael Jordan’s ability to hang in the air like Barishnikov and make spontaneous choices like Suzanne Farrell. But neither moved me like Veronika Part in arabesque. But that’s me. Does the athletic touch the same place in the sports fan as the artistic does for us, or does it touch the same place 32 fouettes do? The latter, I suppose. To my mind, if beautiful women -- the one thing even a neophyte can appreciate -- don't open a heterosexual man's heart to the sublime, male athletic feats aren't likely to do it.

[EvilNinjaX]

I've been at many performances (but fewer in more recent years) where the audience has gone wild over the athletic feats -- even an arabesque penchee.  But if that kind of excitement lures them back, sooner or later they'll discover there's more to it than that.  I hope. 

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This reminds me of a NY Times review, perhaps 5 years back, of a set by tenor saxophonist Joshua Redman at the Village Vanguard, where the audience was said to cheer as if at an NBA game. With its history of “cutting contests,” there is more of a precedent for this is jazz than in ballet (to my knowledge), but it still strikes me as a sadly diminished reaction. I got a thrill from Michael Jordan’s ability to hang in the air like Barishnikov and make spontaneous choices like Suzanne Farrell. But neither moved me like Veronika Part in arabesque. But that’s me. Does the athletic touch the same place in the sports fan as the artistic does for us, or does it touch the same place 32 fouettes do? The latter, I suppose. To my mind, if beautiful women -- the one thing even a neophyte can appreciate -- don't open a heterosexual man's heart to the sublime, male athletic feats aren't likely to do it.

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i think it was in the BORN TO BE WILD : MEN OF ABT video where they showed a clip of Jose Manuel Carreno and his cousin(?) doing a pas de deux in Cuba. As they were performing, the crowd was going insane, whooping it up as if at a soccer (football!) game. it was the coolest thing. but then, you know about those fiery Cubans!

-goro-

[carbro]

On a Nova program on PBS a few months back, Robert Krulwich explained the phenom of "mirror neurons" and why they are responsible for getting us "all worked up" at athletic events. (He also shows a dancer, too small and blurry on my screen to identify, in a Rose Building studio.)

Check out the site , or go directly to the video.

[sandik]

On a Nova program on PBS a few months back, Robert Krulwich explained the phenom of "mirror neurons" and why they are responsible for getting us "all worked up" at athletic events.  (He also shows a dancer,  too small and blurry on my screen to identify, in a Rose Building studio.)

Check out the site , or go directly to the video.

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The clips are fascinating, in part because they take two different movement phrases (one from ballet and one from capoeira) that have very similar biomechanics, but one is initiated primarily from the upper body and one from the lower body, and the results are quite different. Thanks so much for posting this link!

[Andrei]

This is no surprise for me. Every time I'm watching bad dancing, my muscles get sore, because I'm trying to help and unconsciosly dancing instead of them. If the dancer got injured, I'm shouting like it's happened with me, doesn't matter where I am, in the auditorium or at home.

[Mme. Hermine]

I'm pretty sure that's Eleena Melamed, footage from the "Dying to be Thin" series on Nova. (ABT?)

  (He also shows a dancer,  too small and blurry on my screen to identify, in a Rose Building studio.)