Amy Reusch Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 After watching -- with disconcertment -- my little girl be taught to do "alligator arms" and finding the imagery not at all to my liking... I got to wondering about what would be better imagery, and wondered where the position got it's start... I was thinking of flying sylphs and wilis and such and thinking that it was more like trying to keep vines and whatnot out of ones eyes while flying... [though it's not quite the position Clark Kent came up with is it?] Where did the position get started? Do we see it before pointe? I can't think of it occuring anywhere in art save in illustrations of 19th century ballerinas... Why is it called a Ceccheti third when certainly the position predates him? What is that position called in Vaganova? Surely it is in the Petipa repetoire? Link to comment
vrsfanatic Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 Not being sure of Cecchetti arms, I can only guess what is being asked. I think you are asking what would be the equivalent of Vaganova, one arm in first allonge, the other in third allonge. There are only 3 basic arm positions in Vaganova. All are done rounded and in allonge and described just in that way. There are also 4 arabesque arms that correspond to the legs. The other questions, are interesting, but I do not have the answers to those. "Alligator arms" ? :speechless: Link to comment
ToThePointe Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 She is speaking of what I believe to be known in Vagonova terms as Arabesque a deux bras. Both arms allonge in front of the body with one at 90 degrees and one around 135 degrees. Teachers that teach a mosh of styles will commonly refer to it as Checetti 3rd arabesque due to it being called "3rd Arabesque" for that particular syllabus. As far as its origins, I'm not sure, but I'm certain Major Mel will know that one. Link to comment
Victoria Leigh Posted June 9, 2004 Share Posted June 9, 2004 I don't know the origins either, but I call it Cecchetti 3rd arabesque to differentiate it from Vaganova 3rd arabesque, which we also use, actually a lot more than the Cecchetti. The arabesques get confusing because they are different after 1st and 2nd. Arabesque à deux bras makes sense to me, but I'm not sure, as it does not show up in my book as either the French School or the Russian School. The French School seems to have only the croisée arabesque (like Vaganova 4th) and the arabesque ouverte, and the Russian, or Vaganova arabesques show 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th. None of them have the two arms front except the Cecchetti 3rd and 5th. Link to comment
doug Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 I haven't seen this position of the arms notated in the Stepanov notations. Link to comment
Mel Johnson Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 The Cecchetti 3rd arabesque is a development out of the pre-Romantic "arabesque à la lyre" in which the dancer posed as if cradling a Greek lyre harp in two hands in front of her. Gradually, the arms straightened, and eventually, 3rd arabesque. Link to comment
vrsfanatic Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Thanks Major Johnson, what great information! Link to comment
Amy Reusch Posted June 10, 2004 Author Share Posted June 10, 2004 I think we need a new forum: "Stump Major Mel" Is it even possible? Link to comment
Amy Reusch Posted June 10, 2004 Author Share Posted June 10, 2004 But back to the imagery issue that started my musings... (if I can ask this without having to switch forums)... have you ever come up with a good visual explanation for this position? I'm on a mission to undermine the "alligator arms" imagery since it seems to result in rather stiff "jaw" porte de bras... and it's so tricky dealing with a young child's relationship with their teacher. Would that I could just put her in a better school, but at this point I'm just happy to have in any dance class at all. Link to comment
ToThePointe Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Just a side note, I took the term "arabesque a deux bras" from the Gretchen Ward Warren book "Classical Ballet Technique". As far as imagery... it's a tough one. How old is the child in question (I ask to determine what she may or may not understand)? Link to comment
Mel Johnson Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 And besides the poor 'gator who has jaws like 3rd arabesque arms has a badly misaligned bite! Link to comment
vrsfanatic Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 LOL, Major Johnson! My teacher used to say..."like placing a precious item (toy) on the top shelf. Remember you do not want to break it." I have used that one with older students, but not young ones. I am afraid that would encourage them to climb in the closets! :shrug: Link to comment
carabosse Posted June 10, 2004 Share Posted June 10, 2004 Regarding the higher arm in Cecchetti 3rd arabesque.... My teacher used to say imagine having a diamond ring on your finger, holding it up to the light so you could look through the stone. I've also heard the term "arabesque deux bras" from other teachers. -Danielle Link to comment
Amy Reusch Posted June 11, 2004 Author Share Posted June 11, 2004 Thanks for the imagery suggestions. How old is the child in question (I ask to determine what she may or may not understand)?She'll turn 6 in September, but her gift seems to be verbal facility, so feel free... I guess the best thing would be to take her to see some sylphs in action, but out here in the boondocks cultural wasteland it's a bit difficult. I've been trying to figure out how one cradles a lyre. Would this be like in a greek amphora illustration... sort of 2 dimensional? with one hand closer to the chest than the other? Link to comment
ToThePointe Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 I've told my students to think of a strong wind rushing from behind them pushing on their back and blowing their arms out and up. Link to comment
Mel Johnson Posted June 11, 2004 Share Posted June 11, 2004 I've been trying to figure out how one cradles a lyre. Would this be like in a greek amphora illustration... sort of 2 dimensional? with one hand closer to the chest than the other? Right, the lower hand supports the bow of the lyre, and the upper hand holds the upper part of the instrument holding it in profile to the audience. Think Balanchine's "Orpheus". Link to comment
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