Promoting ballet through sports competition

[Hal]

In reading the posts on the NEA issue, it occurred to me that male ballet dancers are really superb athletes. The networks always seem to be having fun competitions between athletes in different sports. How about getting a ballet dancer included? Better yet, how about having a ballet company challange the local sports teams to a competition. It could probably be a great fund raiser for the ballet company. I am sure that there are some athletes who would be willing to do it. The challange could be fun stuff that didn't require any particular sport facility, but just tested athleticisim. Running, jumping, weight lifting, all come to mind. It would be great to have the local sports heroes compete with the ballet dancers. My guess is that it would significantly raise the inerest in ballet even if they lost. They would certainly put in a strong showing and most male ballet dancers certainly don't look like wimps as I believe many might suspect. So what do you all think? Is this workable? How do you think the ballet dancers would do in such an event? Would Damian Woetzel outperform Derek Jeter? Would Philip Neal outperform Alan Houston? Would James Fayette outperform Kerry Collins? Inquiring minds want to know. :shrug:

[Old Fashioned]

it occurred to me that male ballet dancers are really superb athletes.

Female ballet dancers aren't?

I'm not sure your idea would work. Dancers are trained in a completely different way from most other athetes. The running, especially, wouldn't work.

[Chedva]

I think it's a clever idea, and it might work if the proper events were scheduled. I know that my dd discovered in her school's gym class that only she and one other dancer were able to complete a 45 minute aerobic & strengthening video workout; the rest of the girls gave up (including the ones on the various sports team).

But this kind of "competition" should definitely bring in both ballet fans and sports fans. Out of the box thinking!

[chauffeur]

Intriguing idea, but I think unless the dancers had learned and continued to participate in sports from a young age, they would be at a significant disadvantge to other athletes, especially if there were skill activities involved in the competition. There was a fascinating book published several years ago called "Why Michael Can't Hit" and it focused in large part on basketball star Michael Jordan's unsuccessful bid to play professional baseball. Research has proven that there's a "window of opportunity" for learning and mastering particular physical and even mental skills. That window usually closes by 14 for any activity. In other words, you can still learn new skills all your life, but if you want to become truly excellent at something, the overwhelming odds are you'll have to start learning it young.

But most dancers (and athletes) eventually have to make the choice to specialize, and I think the pressure to make that decision is coming earlier and earlier in our society, so these kids are missing out on the opportunities to master other skills. Swimming is just about the only competitive activity I've found to be compatible with dancing, and I often notice swimming is listed as a pre-dance-life activity for some dancers. Makes sense -- it builds stamina without pounding. We're encouraging our daughter to keep doing both as long as possible.

The only dancer I've ever heard of who attempted to compete at sports while performing professionally was Jacques D'Amboise who ran the NYC Marathon -- in the midst of his dance season, no less! But I get the impression he is one rare bird, and more power to him for that! D'Amboise, I would bet, could have defeated (and perhaps still could!) many of these juiced-up-on-steroids, sad-excuses-for-athlete baseball players in contests of stamina and agility. :grinning:

[Watermill]

Hal, I certainly appreciate the attempt to "help" ballet become more mainstream. But as a founding member of the Bristle Club (we who bristle at the neverending constant attempts to align, infuse, match, compare and meld ballet with sport), I must respectfully disagree with your basic concept. While on the face of it, your idea seems like a good PR opportunity, two unassailable facts must not be overlooked:

1. Those who are so weak-minded as to think male ballet dancers are wimps will never be able to appreciate it anyway. They'll enjoy your Real Man Reality Bachelor Survivor IV from the plush beer-soaked confines of their couch, but these potatoes will never purchase a ticket. Especially with the Monster Macho Truck Pull coming up next week.

2. Ballet has survived for 350 years. Football for 125. Call me in 225 years and then we'll talk...

Seriously, these sorts of things don't readily seem to translate into increased audiences for ballet. Though I would agree with you that athleticsm is a part of ballet, it is in servivice to beauty, characterization and storytelling. In sport athleticsm is in service to making points and winning the game (as well as lucrative endorsements).

One of the reasons we at the Bristle Club are so bristly of late is because we have been watching ballet increasingly slide towards the "athletic": more turns (badly done), higher leaps (off the music), weird contortions (is that supposed to be an arabesque?).

And we remember the Golden Age of Nureyev (the '60's), when more people attended ballet than football. Because it was beautiful. Yes, his dancing had a virile masculinity to it, but it was never seen as athletic. It was dance and it was amazing. And, to your point: it was sold out.

My personal opinion on box office is that if the major companies would do more to educate and bring in young people to their performances there would be an increased audience. Long term thinking like this is not the strong suit of most companies, however.

I applaud your concern for ballet, and hope you forgive the bristling.

Watermill

[Funny Face]

Former ABT principal Ted Kivitt used to have weight lifting contests with the Steelers.

[Farrell Fan]

He also did a nice job lifting Eleanor D'Antuono. :rolleyes:

[sandik]

Twyla Tharp made a dance for Peter Martins and (I think his name was) Lynne Swan, a football player for an Eastern team, that used similar materials (a saut de basque resembled some kind of jumping catch from sports). I can't find it in the NYPL catalogue, but I'm pretty sure I remember it on PBS. I doubt it actually convinced someone who was a sports fan to transfer their loyalty to dance, but it could have improved their opinion of dancers.

[carbro]

Lynn Swann had discovered that studying ballet increased his football skills and was already an accomplished amateur at the time.

Gene Kelly once choreographed a dance -- a phrase, actually -- for himself using the movements of famous athletes as they demonstrated in the studio. I remember how gorgeous his golfer's swing and baseball slide were.

And the aptly named Derek Jeter is sometimes seen pulling off a mean pas de chat vole as he throws to the baseman.

[dirac]

Fred Astaire had a mean golf swing also, as he demonstrates in the stunning "golf dance" in "Carefree." Not that I actually regard golf as a sport.

Attempts to establish detente between ballet and sport can't hurt, as long as the distinctions Watermill makes remain clear. I think that people's minds can be changed regarding what we might call "the wimp factor" with the right kind of persuasion and education.

Lynn Swann's "Eastern team" was the Steelers. For examples of his gorgeous style, check out footage of Super Bowl X on ESPN Classics and elsewhere.

[Hal]

I have tried to respond to Watermills post below:

Hal, I certainly appreciate the attempt to "help" ballet become more mainstream. But as a founding member of the Bristle Club (we who bristle at the neverending constant attempts to align, infuse, match, compare and meld ballet with sport), I must respectfully disagree with your basic concept. While on the face of it, your idea seems like a good PR opportunity, two unassailable facts must not be overlooked:

1. Those who are so weak-minded as to think male ballet dancers are wimps will never be able to appreciate it anyway. They'll enjoy your Real Man Reality Bachelor Survivor IV from the plush beer-soaked confines of their couch, but these potatoes will never purchase a ticket. Especially with the Monster Macho Truck Pull coming up next week.

I don't think the target I was looking for was as neanderthal as the one you describe. I was thinking of all of those soccer dads whose daughters are also taking ballet but have no appreciation for it. Showing them how athletic ballet dancers are might get them to think about ballet a bit differently. And that would be a good think IMHO.

2. Ballet has survived for 350 years. Football for 125. Call me in 225 years and then we'll talk...

So? Gage and Tolner is closing after 125 years in Brooklyn. And track and field dates to the original Olympics in ancient Greece.

Seriously, these sorts of things don't readily seem to translate into increased audiences for ballet. Though I would agree with you that athleticsm is a part of ballet, it is in servivice to beauty, characterization and storytelling. In sport athleticsm is in service to making points and winning the game (as well as lucrative endorsements).

Whatever the athleticism is in service to is not material. The point is that ballet dancers are superb athletes and should be recognized as such by the general public.

One of the reasons we at the Bristle Club are so bristly of late is because we have been watching ballet increasingly slide towards the "athletic": more turns (badly done), higher leaps (off the music), weird contortions (is that supposed to be an arabesque?).

Doesn't everything seem to be going downhill these days? :shrug: I don't have the technical knowlege to argue this point but there seems to me to be lots of better dancers these days. Just my humble opinion.

And we remember the Golden Age of Nureyev (the '60's), when more people attended ballet than football. Because it was beautiful. Yes, his dancing had a virile masculinity to it, but it was never seen as athletic. It was dance and it was amazing. And, to your point: it was sold out.

What world do you live in? More people attended ballet than football? Puleese! In an average weekend in the Fall, more people go to football games in that one weekend then went to all of the ballet performances throughout the world in a decade. Remember there are hundreds of college stadiums that seat as many as 100,000 people and are sold out. Considering a ballet venue of say 3000 (NYS Theater only seats 2800+) it would take a full month of sold out performances to equal a single huge college stadium. And then there are all of those hundreds of sold out high school games in just Texas, to say nothing of the sold out 60-100,000 seat stadiums for the pros.

My personal opinion on box office is that if the major companies would do more to educate and bring in young people to their performances there would be an increased audience. Long term thinking like this is not the strong suit of most companies, however.

I couldn't agree with you more on this one. The question I think that is important is how? Getting ballet accepted as a more macho endeavor could possibly help with this. Look, I believe that the general public basically thinks that ballet dancers are "fags" (gay, homosexual) And while I deplore the fact that this is off putting to many people, I believe it is a problem in getting ballet to be more accepted to more people. And whether the stereotype is real or not is besides the point. So many young men will be reluctant to study ballet, or even go to see ballet as long as this is true. My idea is only one way that might help redefine that attitude about ballet.

I applaud your concern for ballet, and hope you forgive the bristling.

Thanks, but then I couldn't expect more from someone named Watermill (never much liked the Robbins Ballet).

[Hans]

I can answer the technical question. Dancers today dance differently and put emphasis on different aspects of their dancing, but they are in many ways not more technically accomplished than those of the past. On that point, I agree with Watermill--the style (and on many points, the technique that used to be kept firmly in service of the style) is slipping away fast in favor of athleticism.

As far as dancers having their athleticism recognized by the general public goes, I see your point, but I would hope that dancers themselves would be more concerned with having their artistry recognized. If recognizing the athleticism is the first step to this, so be it, but let's not lose sight of the real point of ballet.

[dirac]

While I admire the intensity of feelings on this matter (and thank you Hal, for starting the discussion), I'd like to remind everyone to take it easy. No one's out of line yet and I'm all in favor of spirited, even sharp, give and take, but just in case.

Also, let's try to avoid the use of derogatory slang -- even if we are deploring the attitudes behind the words.

I agree with you, Hal, that the question of sexual orientation is a definite part of "wimp factor" perceptions. However, I believe that's changing, slowly. I hope so, anyway.

My own feeling is that dancers (in general do) look better today. Baseball players (in general) do also, because of advances in training and nutrition. Hans is quite right to say that in some respects they are not more technically accomplished than earlier generations. In other respects they may be, and it does no harm to say so, as long as no one is implying that Pavlova couldn't dance, etc.

[BryanM]

Agreed... not to get too intense here. In fact, finding ways for the American culture to connect to dance is not a trivial or easy topic. Since sports is so mainstream in the US, its a natural thought. I think we can think of two parts of this issue:

1) How to get the attention of people who would otherwise have no exposure to dance, both performing and watching

2) How to promote the ongoing social relevance and connectedness of dance to a modern audience.

For the first issue, all of the examples given (Gene Kelly's demonstration is my favorite) do their part. Equally, since social patterns and modern life globally are changing so quickly, dance must do its part to keep up. As I said, this sint easy!

[Funny Face]

Just as an aside regarding baseball players and their increased health/nutrition, I was devastated to learn in the past year or two that more than half of pro players are on steroids, this estimation coming from the players themselves. Anyone else follow this scandal as it came to the fore, and the extensive media coverage surrounding it?

My city does not have a major ballet company anymore, but it does have a ballet association that presents half a dozen major troupes each season, and the one major sellout is always MOMIX -- the athleticism is exactly what seems to appeal to people here. It's one of those companies that women don't have trouble getting their mates coming to see. So, I think there is something to the pull of blatant athleticism.

[Helene]

Just as an aside regarding baseball players and their increased health/nutrition, I was devastated to learn in the past year or two that more than half of pro players are on steroids, this estimation coming from the players themselves.  Anyone else follow this scandal as it came to the fore, and the extensive media coverage surrounding it? 

Unfortunately TV revenues are the driving forces in the major professional sports, and even some non-professional sports, like figure skating. Teams without mega media contracts must compete with teams that do, and the push for attendance is key. What baseball and hockey find is that people like to see the offense side of the game, the big "score." In baseball it's the brute who stands behind the plate and reams the ball over the wall who's the hero, not so much the manager who manufactures a run here and there. (In some stadiums, there's a fireworks display, if the home team hits a home run.) And it's certainly not the pressing defense. In hockey there were articles about the demise of the game as we know it when NJ Devils' coach Jacques Lemaire implemented the "trap defense" with the club, which reduced shots on goal for the other team. Every attempt to cut down the offense -- raising the pitcher's mound, reducing the strike zone has been met with fan complaints of boredom. On TV it's hard to see how good defense is the counter to offense, but all the guy at home sees is the guy with the bat against the pitcher, or, in hockey, limited sections of the ice. Plus kids are used to the instant gratification and high scores of video games.

Power translates all too often into steroids. It's easy to see why baseball players would use them, especially designated hitters. There's not much running around, and if you can hit the ball over the fence, you only need to do the victory jog around the bases. And if you strike out, that jog is a lot shorter. It's hard to imagine that they'd do hockey players much good, because those players need to retain speed and quick reflexes, but professional hockey in North America, alone among team sports, has a crowd-pleasing distraction for its fans that has nothing to do with scoring: the well-defined fight conventions that are a cross between boxing and professional wrestling.

Ballet is competing with all of this, and the men in ballet are being compared to artificially enhanced bruisers. No wonder ballet attempts to show that the men are the "Spud Webbs" of the performing arts.

[Watermill]

Thank you for your reply, Hal. While we "agree to disagree" on this well worn and polarizing topic, I'd like to respond to a couple of your well made points:

The point is that ballet dancers are superb athletes and should be recognized as such by the general public.

I know a high, hanging fast ball when I see it, and here's the swing:

Ballet dancers are superb artists and should be recognized as such.

I think where you & I (both looking to support ballet in our own way) part company is over this crucial point. Finding a non-threatening way to interpret male ballet dancers abilities (They're "athletic") is taking the gourmet cuisine that ballet can be and transforming it into a fast food Happy Meal.

Instead, why not educate them at an early age (which we agree on) to appreciate the artistry in the art form? You want to call them atheletes? It's a free country. But even soccer dads with Phd's are going to be fairly hard pressed to find the sport in most ballet. I don't know...maybe if we threw a ball up on stage? (I can see it now: Wilis 1, Albrecht 0)

In an average weekend in the Fall, more people go to football games in that one weekend then went to all of the ballet performances throughout the world in a decade.

Well, I think you're possibly underestimating the number of ballet goers in a world wide decade, but I dropped the ball on this one. I had meant to say that more people attended "professional dance" than "professional" football. This is an oft-quoted statistic that I threw out without researching, but I randomly selected 1966 attendance figures for the NFL: about 4.3 million. Haven't been able to find figures for dance for that year, but based on the NEA figures for other years, dance attendance exceeded 5 million. It is widely thought that the Nureyev phenomenon contributed strongly to the "dance boom" of the 60's-70's. But, of course, the TV audience for football would completely dwarf these figures. I was merely trying to assert that, ballet can stand on its own without needing to be sport-like.

My further point is that ballet has been suffering in quality as of late in part because of this dumbing down from artistry to altheticsm. By the way, there have always been and will be counters of fouettes and stopwatched jette hang-times My concern is that we're seeing more of that among choreographers pandering to the lower as opposed to the higher instincts of the audience.

I think many men who would not be comfortable with ballet would totally enjoy much contemporary dance such as Momix, & Pilobolus etc. How about this as a gradual course in dance appreciation: Cirque du Soleil, Momix, Nederlands Dans Theatre, La Fille Mal Garde.

Now, since "turn-about is fair play", let's talk about getting more style and grace into sports, shall we? Those NFL linemen are such clumsy brutes. All that pushing and shoving! No manners whatsoever....

With a wink,

Watermill

[chauffeur]

The thought occurs to me in reading everyone passionately defending their positions here with this art vs. athleticism debate, that I don’t think the two sides define athleticism the same way. I think for those of us who move comfortably between the worlds of sports and the arts, athleticism isn’t the dirty word that the pure aesthetes claim it to be.

I don’t believe that art and athleticism are mutually exclusive. What audiences respond to and want more of, in both ballet and sport, is an elegant efficiency of form. What sets apart a dancer as one of the greats is purity of movement, power, focus and passion. There is nothing wasted, physically or emotionally. It’s a perfect fusion of form and substance.

Exactly the same thing is true of athletes who are also the most successful in their sports. The difference, though, is that athletes have finish lines or clocks or score cards by which they must first measure success. If you look at athletes like Michael Jordan, Tiger Woods, Ted Williams, Wilma Rudolph or Wayne Gretzky, who became the gold standard in their sports, what set them apart from the vast majority of other athletes is an elegant efficiency of form.

What makes that elegant efficiency possible is consummate physical fitness which, in turn, makes it possible for the athlete to completely relax in the competitive moment and just flow. The dancer needs fitness and the same kind of skill-mastery that athletes need in order to relax and reach that sublime experience of “flow.”

With ballet, flow is the primary goal. With sport, it’s a by-product. But it happens with both activities, and that’s why I think a lot of us don’t view them as mutually exclusive. And I personally believe that there is much that dance could learn from sport in achieving fitness (without distorting form) which in turn makes it easier to achieve the artistic flow.

[Funny Face]

I think what we're looking for is some of the 'bounty' -- be it accolades, money, etc. -- that athletes enjoy. For instance, that's why dance depts. are becoming more modern oriented. Talk to the chairpersons of these depts. They'll tell you that they don't have the big bucks that athletic depts. have to recruit the top of the (classical) field. Hence, those dancers go directly to companies instead of to college. Meanwhile, the depts. become modern oriented because it's a more 'forgiving' form in terms of age and ability. These aren't pretty words, but they're true.

I'm not sure how it came to be that baseball teams had to 'go steroid' -- certainly, this wasn't the case during the glory days. I grew up watching Hank Aaron, Warren Spahn, etc., from the bleachers, and later the likes of Paul Molitor and Robin Yount. Gosh, it was fun. I've got a whole collection of movies of America's game, and I love it as much as I love ballet. When I toured overseas, I was always trying to get ahold of box scores from the U.S. Our artistic directors used to kid that they should choreogaph something that would allow me to wear a baseball hat. I'm still waiting.

A couple of years ago, I had the very interesting experience of taking a dance history course that had more baseball players in it than dance majors. At first, there was a visible rift. Then, one day, the class got into a discussion about the concept of 'flow ' -- that inexplicable thing that happens when you're in the zone. One of the ball players described it as having the ball pitched to you and it looking "THIS BIG" (visualize a basketball). The class broke out into a frenzy with ball players and dancers finally starting to merge. The guys at first kidded about having to go to the box office and pick up their tickets for the requisite concerts they were supposed to attend. When one of those concerts included one of the school concerts with their classmates involved, they really began to develop an awe and a respect.

I love those memories -- the girls coming in and eating their power bars and yogurts and the guys stinking up the place with their onion filled poor boys. It really did start to foster some mutual understanding.

[dirac]

Well put, chauffeur.

When I spoke of training and nutrition, I was talking about changes that took place gradually over the course of the last century. I was not thinking of steroids or like substances, an entirely separate issue. I probably should have made a point of that, since the topic has been so much in the news, lately.