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The NYCB orchestra -- "horrible" to "passable"?


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There's a February 1 link posted by Alexandra to a piece by Terry Teachout which for some reason I can't access. But the summary quotes him about the NYCB orchestra this season: "Sometimes it sounded horrible, sometimes passable." This is too serious a charge to go unremarked. I think the orchestra has been sounding fine. Does anyone know what Mr. Teachout is talking about?

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I am not intending this as a personal slur on a specific musician.

That said, I think the orchestra which accompanies NYCB sounds dreadful. On opening night, they were very ragged. . . I took this as an indication of first night pixies in the pit.

Since then, matters have gotten worse. I can't cavil at performances of corps members who are not together when the orchestra is operating under the same star. On Saturday night, Donizetti was like confetti.....

The Kennedy Center musicians who accompanied the Royal Danish Ballet sounded fine.....evidently the "it's ballet, so hang intonation and playing in unison" stigma has not moved south of the Mason Dixon line. It sounds ridiculous, but one of the major drawbacks of City Ballet's Swan Lake (I know, I know....) is the nasty diaspora of the brass section. For those of us who do not particularly care for the vegetable bin first act, the option of closing our eyes and listening to exquisite music exists only in our longings.

I think something is seriously wrong in the orchestra pit. I don't think it's the conductors, although the best Chaconne I have heard recently was conducted by Guillermo Figueroa in Saratoga. The Juilliard orchestra heard in annual SAB Workshop performances is conducted by Richard Moredock and sounds fine. Go figure.

I cringe at the prospect of the horns in Sleeping Beauty....sigh.

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Still laughing -- thank you, Juliet :P

What is it about the horns? (Dale, can you tell us?) The Kennedy Center Orchestra's horn section has yet to get through a Prokofiev "Romeo and Juliet" without embarrassment. One of the Post's music critics (forget which one) made special mention, during the Kirov Opera's recent week here, how Gergiev had made the horn section behave, as though it were a first -- and it may well have been.

Back to NYCB, has Andrea Quinn made a difference? All I read about is how fast she is.

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The musicians themselves seem to love Quinn. No small accomplishment if you know orchestras.

Personally, I think the orchestra is uneven from performance to performance. One Midsummer Night's Dream was beautifully, even brilliantly played. In the next, the principal horn during Titania's pdd with Bottom was so totally, execrably and horribly off key during the entire passage that it was impossible to enjoy anything on stage. And the horn sounded choked with phlegm. On Friday night, Apollo sounded beautiful and Hugo Fiorato got an equally lovely sound from the strings during Serenade.

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Very difficult instrument, the horn. Every orchestra that I have ever heard in live concert has had occasional problems with horns--the Philadelphia Orchestra and New York Philharmonic, and all the rest. Sometimes what comes out of the instrument is satanic.

I've had a Kyra performance of "Valse Triste" ruined by the horn introduction. Ditto for Bizet. Even given the difficulties of the instrument--these are professional musicians. Presumably they have all graduated from conservatories. I would think they would be mortified at the sounds they sometimes create.

I agree with much of what has been said previously. This season I was privileged to hear a rendition of Apollo that was magnificent. The quality is uneven, but I don't think the orchestra as a whole is ever truly horrible. For some reason, the orchestra generally sounds quite wonderful in Saratoga, even given the conditions of outdoor performance--humidity, etc.

For the record, imo Andrea Quinn has hit the mark more often than not in recent performances that I have seen. I think she is doing a wonderful job. And re the recent thread about Hugo Fiarato, what a pleasure to see him on the podium again, after his recent health problems. He is a grand favorite in Saratoga, as well as NY, and was given a resounding ovation upon his return here last summer. I had the honor of chatting with him briefly. What a gentleman--but his tempi are sometimes too SLOW now, at least in my opinion.

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I've seen the same thing here, Uncrossed 5th, when I've been seated upstairs.

Re horns. Do you have one CD of any symphony (of the non-ballet type) where the horns break wind, as it were? Or ever heard it in a concert? I haven't. Maybe they should all play the Handel horn concerti every night for homework!

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The French horn is notorious for being difficult to control, sometimes being almost random in foul notes.

In CDs, problems can, and are, edited out.

The crossword thing seems more awful than it is, really. When there's a long rest between parts for a dancer when they go offstage, even they occasionally do a crossword or read a book. The only difference is they're safely offstage.

I've seen enough other ballet orchestras to agree that NYCB's ought to care more about their quality. If they played better, I wouldn't care if they did the crossword in ink :P

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I agree that it doesn't matter if they're doing crosswords, or playing pattycake, during rests if they play well, but bad horn playing isn't acceptable in orchestras -- Leigh, every CD isn't edited, and I've attended many symphony and chamber concerts over the years; I've never heard horn playing as I do from ballet orchestras. (Editing to say that that last comment refers to the orchestra here, in D.C. I haven't heard NYCB's often enough to compare that.)

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OK, next time I'll be brave and say it:

Saturday night, at a performance of Donizetti and Scotch, i distinctly saw half the orchestra reading, doing crosswords, or chatting it up with the musician next to him/or her.

I saw it, too (I was up in 4th Ring) and couldn't believe it.

I used to read a book during what I termed "rest stops," but I kept it vertically on my music stand.

Horns: most memorably at the beginning of Desiree/Florimund's hunting party in the grotto scene......we have two weeks of it awaiting us later in the month.....

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Very difficult instrument, the horn. Every orchestra that I have ever heard in live concert has had occasional problems with horns--the Philadelphia Orchestra and New  York Philharmonic, and all the rest. Sometimes what comes out of the instrument is satanic.

I've had a Kyra performance of "Valse Triste" ruined by the horn introduction. Ditto for Bizet. Even given the difficulties of the instrument--these are professional musicians. Presumably they have all graduated from conservatories. I would think they would be mortified at the sounds they sometimes create.

I agree with much of what has been said previously. This season I was privileged to hear a rendition of Apollo that was magnificent. The quality is uneven, but I don't think the orchestra as a whole is ever truly horrible. For some reason, the orchestra generally sounds quite wonderful in Saratoga, even given the conditions of outdoor performance--humidity, etc.

For the record, imo Andrea Quinn has hit the mark more often than not in recent performances that I have seen. I think she is doing a wonderful job. And re the recent thread about Hugo Fiarato, what a pleasure to see him on the podium again, after his recent health problems. He is a grand favorite in Saratoga, as well as NY, and was given a resounding ovation upon his return here last summer. I had the honor of chatting with him briefly. What a gentleman--but his tempi are sometimes too SLOW now, at least in my opinion.

OK, I must have been REALLY tired last night. I meant "Pavane", not "Valse Triste", "Pavane", where the entire melody and mood depends on that horn intro.

I'm a mom of an aspiring musician, (NOT a horn player, thank you heaven) so I've been giving this matter lots of thought. Since I brought up the issue of mistakes from the brass sections of major orchestras, I'll share this:

Saratoga summer 1999--Philadelphia Orchestra playing a Dvorak Symphony--I think the 7th. Major mess-up from the horn section and I remember this so clearly because my daughter was in the student orchestra that was studying with the Phil Orch and playing the same repertoire. That bit of playing was horrible ( in fact the kids played it better) and no one in the audience could miss it--but it was an isolated incident. It was so memorable because it was so out of character for that very fine ensemble.

The difference is between an occasional screw-up--and no one is immune from that--and consistent bad performance. We've all seen a favorite dancer have a bad night, but when the dancing is usually wonderful we can be disappointed, but accepting of the bad time. When performance is consistently bad, and one waits for the mistakes--that is unacceptable.

I'm coming to the conclusion that the latter is the case with the horns in the NYCB Orchestra. It is also the case, sadly, with a certain female principal dancer who is always cast in the most wonderful roles (Rubies, now--but also Terpsichore, Columbine, Barocco--just this season). Very very sad.

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Years ago, the orchestra players used to dash out the minute the final curtain came down. When Robert Irving or Hugo Fiorato took their curtain calls and acknowledged the players, they were usually gesturing toward an empty pit. It seems to me a memo must have gone out at one point, because in recent times the players actually hang around for this. In a few instances, they have even applauded the conductor. So I'm distressed to hear about their lack of involvement during the performance. I agree about the horns -- they sometimes make me cringe (not just with the NYCB orchestra.) But would anyone here prefer recorded music?

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As a former horn player I can tell you, the instrument is not easy.

I imagine that most professional musicians would like to be playing in a major symphony orchestra. And preferably as a Principal. Being as those jobs are limited in number, people find their own niches. I have often admired the orchestra at NYCB even though they do not all seem to be first class musicians.

They play a huge span of styles, from Bach to Adams, and the sheer number of ballets in the rep (far more than ABT, though the pieces are shorter) means lots of rehearsals with rotating conductors. One could say: they are professional musicians and the level should be higher. Maybe so. They are also human. Even the Met orchestra, which Levine has honed to be probably the greatest opera pit band in the world, has off-nights, bloopers, early entries, blown-out lips, etc. Like any other job, even if you love it and work your butt off and give 100%, you can still screw up. I have a friend in the NY Phil and I know he is a great player and takes his job very seriously, but I've heard him make mistakes.

All that said, I sometimes wince when things go awry. And I don't really like to see the players reading, whispering to each other, etc. But I suppose somewhere in the union rules it says a pit musician who must sit thru a piece in which he plays only a few measures can quietly read when he is not playing. I guess that's better than having them come and go from the pit when their "moment" is over.

I think Quinn is doing pretty well. As for being "fast", I think speed was always associated with NYCB. Maybe we have gotten lulled by conductors slowing down things for some of the older dancers. I suppose accomodating the dancers is part of the job, and so is pushing them sometimes. Couple years ago, Quinn was conducting for one of the senior ballerinas and I thought, "This is way too fast...she'll never make it at this tempo." But she did, and gave one of her best "late career" performances.

Final note: the other day when leaving SWAN LAKE I passed a man saying to his wife "Wasn't the orchestra wonderful?" and then, downstairs by the door, two women complaining how poorly the musicians played, ruining the afternoon for them.

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As a child I read a children's book on the instruments of the orchestra. Because the French horn was my favorite instrument, I was very sad to read that it reacts very badly to changes in temperature. The book asked the reader to cut the French horn player some slack, because he -- they were all "he's" back then -- couldn't control the tone and felt worse than the audience did when his instrument went out of tune.

I've heard world class orchestras and orchestras that were no great shakes. Same with opera orchestras. In the context of this thread, I'm almost afraid to say I've heard world class ballet orchestras :), but I think I have, as well as their less than stellar counterparts. It seems to me that more problems arise with horns in orchestra pits. I'm not sure if it's a temperature thing -- no steady lights under there to keep the air temperature constant -- or a problem hearing themselves play. But it seems to me that horn players in so-so orchestras have fewer bloopers than opera and ballet orchestras in pits, even when the same musicians play in all three.

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The musicians do seem to love Andrea Quinn. A huge accomplishment.

I attend NYCB performances frequently, and I agree that the orchestra is uneven from performance to performance. One night they are brilliant, the next they are

dreadful. Must be challenging to perform perfectly every night with so many different ballets and composers in such lengthy seasons.

As for musicians reading and doing crossword puzzles while in the pit, perhaps someone here at BA ought to write a "suggestion" letter to Peter Martins or Andrea Quinn.

I'm very rarely in the fourth ring for the ballet, so I haven't seen this. Peter and Andrea probably haven't sat in the fourth/fifth rings either. I don't suspect they'd approve of such behavior.

Perhaps another case of leadership missing overall. I'm recalling days when Balanchine was still here, and he, as well as his works were so admired and respected by everyone involved in performing them...

True decency and respectful behavior seem missing, in general, in our world today...

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That's a good idea, Anna -- to me, the crossword puzzle reading is more a matter of decorum than the quality of their playing. The dancers don't chat and read books while they're standing on the side in Symphony in C 4th movement, and I think we could expect the orchestra to be "on duty" the whole time they're in the pit. They're paid enough.

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I saw the new Stroman last evening and Woetzel and Gold are great, but I wouldn't be rushing out to see it again.Ansanelli was also terrific and Maria can do no wrong in my eyes. I loved the work of the corps, and I like Keenan and Krohn a lot. I'm eager to see "Sleeping Beauty" next Thursday.

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As someone who played the french horn for more than 20 years, I have to stick up for the instrument (and I studied with NYCB principal horn player Paul Ingraham while I was at Manhattan School of Music, so I guess I have to stick up for him too). One of the biggest difficulties with the horn is the overtone system - with only three buttons (like the trumpet) you have to change the notes with slight adjustments to your lips. But the space between those notes are much smaller or closer together than that of the trumpet, so there is a greater margin for error, especially among the higher notes. In addition, the horn has a wider range than the other brass instruments - four octives. As Mel said, it's a real beast, but, of course, it's my favorite instrument. When played well, it's glorious.

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Just kidding, Alexandra, but I could well imagine the cross-word orchestra members would retort it's bad decorum to peek into the pit while the show is on.

Whom I really pity are the rehearsal pianists. Last Fall I attended a bunch of Swan Lake rehearsals in Amsterdam. As I recall corps rehearsals started two months in advance (it was the first time in four years or more). At first the pianists looked pretty pleased at playing these gorgeous tunes, but in the last week I saw one of them looking at his hands as if he was totally ready to strangle Pjotr should he by any chance enter the studio...

Probably no one thinks at age 13 "I wanna be second violin in a ballet orchestra when I grow up." In Amsterdam the orchestra gets a few symphonic outings during the off-season to keep the happy juices flowing.

However the really scary news in the Terry Teachout link above is IMO that T.T. is working on "a brief biography" of Mr B.

Is it just my suspicious mind that's telling me the word "brief" means no original research will be done for this book? What we really need is a good, big, thoroughly researched new generation biography, rather than a quicky to preempt the market. I'm rather suprised no such book was launched for the Centenary - or am I missing something?

Herman

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What we really need is a good, big, thoroughly researched new generation biography, rather than a quicky to preempt the market. I'm rather suprised no such book was launched for the Centenary  -  or am I missing something?

Apologies for veering off-topic, but I thoroughly agree with Herman. The fact is that, over twenty years after Balanchine's death, no such biography exists. One still hopes that Arlene Croce will be the one to write it, but as Stravinsky said to Balanchine after the latter's promise of a culinary feast, WHEN?

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